"Britishness" OR "Englishness"?

Tom Wilde · 05-02-2006, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Trooper

What is the point in a so called English parliament? Was it not the English who conquered the Welsh and the Scotts? Basically what the English democrats are suggesting is that we give up these conquests, for some fanciful dream of England will be better on its own. If that was true we would not have conquered them in the first place. .

Actually, I don't want to be pedantic, but your history is a bit flawed. England did conquer Wales, but it failed to conquer Scotland (not for lack of trying, either!)

England finally conquered Wales in 1282, when the last native Prince of Wales was killed by an English trooper and resistance collapsed for a while. There was an uprising led by Owain Glyndwr in around 1399 which was successful for a few years, but the English had crushed the rising by about 1406. However, in 1485 an Anglo-Welsh nobleman called Henry Tudor (descendent of a native Welsh ruler, Rhys ap Gruffydd of Deheubarth), backed by Welsh troops, defeated Richard III at Bosworth Field to become King of England. The French ambassador commented that Wales had regained its independence. Henry Tudor of course became Henry VII of England, and his son Henry VIII passed the first Act of Union, uniting Wales and England. Therefore it could be argued that the English conquest of Wales was just a temporary phenomenon, and that the modern British state was founded by a Welshman. A rather dodgy argument, IMHO, though it is surely true that the idea of a united, independent British state was a Tudor invention.

The story with Scotland is much clearer. Various brief periods of English rule were thrown off by successful Scottish resistance, and the country maintained its independence until modern times. However, in 1603 the king of Scotland was offered the throne of England too, which permanently united the two monarchies. Thereofre it could be argued that Scotland took over England rather than 'tother way around.

Anyway, this history is all very interesting, but what matters is where we are now, and where we all go from here.

English-Patriot · 06-02-2006, 02:28 PM

Britain never has been One Nation and never will be.
Only a devolved Union can save the United Kingdom now.

English-Patriot · 06-02-2006, 02:31 PM

Perhaps the best solution for all sides would be a devolved United Kingdom with Defence and Foreign Affairs in the hands of a British Imperial Parliament.

Westcountryman · 06-02-2006, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkpdavies

I think they have a theory that Britain is screwed, but England still has a chance. IE the Scots and Welsh want to be EU slaves, as long as it isn't the dreaded English calling the shots. If you look at the SNP aldn Plaid's policies, you can understand why.

However, that makes the assumption that

a) The people vote for those parties in the first place and
b) They understand the fact they are not really independence parties, but anti-English parties.

Personally I am more British than English, but I will always support England if push comes to shove. I'm not yet ready to give up on Britain and I believe a retreat back to being just England will weaken us all as nations.

My sentiments exactly.

smooveOp · 06-02-2006, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by English-Patriot

British Imperial Parliament.

Sorry to be a spoil-sport but my calendar reads "2006" - not "1906" :wink:

Johnny Hates Jazz · 07-02-2006, 09:26 PM

I would suggest that if the English Public knew about the Financial reality of the 50 million people in England, subsidising the 5 million people in Scotland, 3 Million people in Wales and 2 Million in Northern Ireland, then the people of England would vote at a referendum for devolution or independence from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland

Scotland because the English are tired of being controlled by the Scots, and abused

Northern Ireland because the English are tired of the problems in Ireland, caused mainly by the Scots.

Wales may be more marginal ! - Momouthshire should at least come back to being part of England.

Assuming that UKIP are democrats then a referendum on the issue(s) would be acceptable ?

==============================================
Personally I favour a Federal UK, to keep the benefits of the Union, but to stop the susidies !

English First, British Second

tyke · 08-02-2006, 06:38 AM

As long as UKIP snuggle up to the Scottish Parliament with one face and call for its abolishment with the other, they will continue to lose supporters and voters alike.

John Page · 08-02-2006, 06:53 AM

Do we need these new, separate threads on this topic when we already have a thread discussing UKIP's press release on the West Lothian question?

Hartlepool · 08-02-2006, 07:38 AM

No we dont. Better to ignore them that take part in repetition like this JP.

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06-02-2006, 02:28 PM	#12 (permalink)
English-Patriot Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 293	Britain never has been One Nation and never will be. Only a devolved Union can save the United Kingdom now.

06-02-2006, 02:31 PM	#13 (permalink)
English-Patriot Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 293	Perhaps the best solution for all sides would be a devolved United Kingdom with Defence and Foreign Affairs in the hands of a British Imperial Parliament.

07-02-2006, 09:26 PM	#16 (permalink)
Johnny Hates Jazz Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,942	I would suggest that if the English Public knew about the Financial reality of the 50 million people in England, subsidising the 5 million people in Scotland, 3 Million people in Wales and 2 Million in Northern Ireland, then the people of England would vote at a referendum for devolution or independence from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland Scotland because the English are tired of being controlled by the Scots, and abused Northern Ireland because the English are tired of the problems in Ireland, caused mainly by the Scots. Wales may be more marginal ! - Momouthshire should at least come back to being part of England. Assuming that UKIP are democrats then a referendum on the issue(s) would be acceptable ? ============================================== Personally I favour a Federal UK, to keep the benefits of the Union, but to stop the susidies ! English First, British Second

08-02-2006, 06:38 AM	#17 (permalink)
tyke Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 240	As long as UKIP snuggle up to the Scottish Parliament with one face and call for its abolishment with the other, they will continue to lose supporters and voters alike.

08-02-2006, 06:53 AM	#18 (permalink)
John Page Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Welwyn Hatfield (Herts.) Posts: 1,878	Do we need these new, separate threads on this topic when we already have a thread discussing UKIP's press release on the West Lothian question?

08-02-2006, 07:38 AM	#19 (permalink)
Hartlepool Uber Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: North East England Posts: 6,645 Party: Other	No we dont. Better to ignore them that take part in repetition like this JP.