Europe steps up pressure to outlaw smacking

Anthony Butcher · 08-06-2005, 10:54 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/child/stor...501483,00.html

Quote:

The Council of Europe will deliver a ruling today on the human rights of children that will intensify pressure on the British government to introduce legislation banning smacking in the home.
Children's charities were last night jubilant about a decision by the European Committee of Social Rights to uphold complaints against corporal punishment in Ireland, Greece and Belgium.

It will declare in Strasbourg that children in the three countries lack adequate protection from assault by parents, who can use the defence of "reasonable chastisement" to justify corporal punishment.

No complaint was made about the similar defence in Britain, if the smacking is not severe enough to cause cuts or bruises. Children's charities were unable to refer cases because the government has not signed up to the Council of Europe's complaints procedure.

But the committee has another procedure for reviewing member states' progress in implementing the European social charter. Ministers are braced for a reprimand next month about Britain's failure to protect its 13 million children from assaults that could mean prosecution if committed on an adult.

The committee has already criticised nine European countries including France and Spain for failure to ban corporal punishment, fuelling pressure for reform.

It will confirm today supreme court judgments in Italy and Portugal which prohibited corporal punishment. They increased the number of countries to introduce a ban to 16 of the 46 member states.

Peter Clarke, the children's commissioner for Wales and president of the European Network of Children's Ombudspeople, said: "These decisions are a big step towards fulfilling the right of all Europe's children to equal protection from being hit. They underline the human rights obligations of states in the region - including the UK - to prohibit all corporal punishment in the family."

Proposals to ban corporal punishment in Britain were defeated in the Commons in November, despite a revolt by 47 Labour MPs. Margaret Hodge, then children's minister, said a full ban would "criminalise most parents".

She backed a compromise, proposed by the Liberal Democrat peer Lord Lester, allowing parents to inflict "reasonable chastisement" as long as it did not leave visible marks.

The umbrella group Children Are Unbeatable! Alliance said Ireland, Greece and Belgium were expected to comply with the Council of Europe's recommendation shortly.

mkpdavies · 08-06-2005, 10:58 PM

Yes that's right. Much better that a kid learns that their actions could produce a physical response out in the wide world, rather than from a loving parent. :roll:

Council of Europe resume their normal Nanny service.

Anthony Butcher · 08-06-2005, 11:15 PM

I can understand their sentiment, but we are turning our entire society INTO phpbb_a population of drips. The compensation culture and the benefit culture are a direct result of this kind of thinking. We are teaching children all about their "rights" in society, yet not expecting them to take the responsibilities that come with those rights.

Children shouldn't have the same rights as their parents or carers because they don't have the same responsibilities. Parents must have the final say in how to control and chastise their children.

Our children are growing up with less and less boundaries, and it is scarey to see a badly behaved child playing up for a teacher because they know that there are no consequences. It causes huge amounts of stress for teachers, causes long term disruption of lessons and damages the education of other children.

I was slippered at school for bad behaviour and it worked. No permanent damage, it was a short sharp shock to the system and I remembered the lesson very well! I didn't do it again.

Obviously smacking/caning/slippering are not to everyone's tastes, but the state has no business outlawing it without providing a suitable, practical alternative.

Why aren't they focusing their efforts on parents who allow their chidren to become obese? That is a far greater problem, and is tantamount to child abuse in some cases.

Why aren't they concentrating on helping schools and parents to bring up better behaved children so that smacking becomes unnecessary?

Hudson · 08-06-2005, 11:33 PM

Spare the rod and spoil the child. The human race has known this for thousands of years. It's truth. However, modern social-liberal ideology has no room for truth.

We are currently reapng the benefits of the hippies' ban on corporal punishment in schools. Now they want to ban it in the home.

You want a vision of the future? Read Lord of the Flies.

But then! Ah, sweet salvation! Nanny Superstate comes floating down on her EU umbrella, promising to solve everything for us! That's right, we are incapable of living our lives so Nanny must show us the way. Juvenile crime? We need ID cards, CCTV in every home, 're-education' programs for 'oldthinkers'.

And no-one will say a word.

B.A.Ware · 08-06-2005, 11:52 PM

I totally agree with Anthony’s posting, if we give children rights then they must have responsibilities and face the full force of the law. Now we cant do that because children are not responsible adults and they need guidance and that might mean slight chastising of the child.
This is really illogical to me when we had the slipper and cane in schools years ago were the kids not more respectful then. I really wonder have all of these people that were chastised by their parents or school turned INTO phpbb_monsters.

arden forester · 09-06-2005, 12:22 AM

I remember from being caned at school two things!

1. I thought six of the best didn't hurt half as much as the other boys had previously suggested.
2. Having confided this thought to matron she informed the headmaster who had given me the punishment.

My lasting impression. Well the caning was nothing compared with the lesson of life that you can't trust all those around you! Good lesson for politics.

John Carter · 09-06-2005, 02:13 AM

Wait. Doesn't the EU Human Rights Charter guarantee the integrity of the family (or something like that)? How can a family's integrity be maintained if the head of that family can't do what he believes to be the best thing for it without intervention from the state?

rjt · 09-06-2005, 02:49 PM

How on earth do you regulate smacking in the home?

Incidently I am against corporal punishment in schools, beating children with a stick is not punishment it is sadistic.

I would not smack my own children if i had any but to argue for a ban on smacking in the home where a responsible parent wishes to exercise discipline is stupid

Tom Collier · 09-06-2005, 03:27 PM

It might be easier than you think rjt. You simply make parents afraid of their children, just as teachers can be terrified by children thretening to "take you to court" if they intervene to stop a fight or something similar. I think moderate corporal punishment has its place, and is different from abuse.

gareth2 · 09-06-2005, 03:40 PM

i was at a farm yesterday, a 4 year old nearly squeezed a chicken to death. His mum was a stupid ditzy fool, who just said "let go of the nice chickky" and the kid was screaming his eyes out and the chickens eyes were bluging. I nearly gave my chick to dad to hold and ripped this kids hand open. Why didnt i? i was afraid she would call the police on me. ( i think i made the wrong choice though, you shouldnt give INTO phpbb_your fears)

Luckily, the chick appeared to be ok in the end, but the kid remained a screaming obnoxious brat. Kids already get off to lightly, when what they need is a clip round the ear and a father.

regards,
Gareth.

08-06-2005, 10:58 PM	#2 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 31,158 Party: Libertarian Party	Yes that's right. Much better that a kid learns that their actions could produce a physical response out in the wide world, rather than from a loving parent. :roll: Council of Europe resume their normal Nanny service. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

08-06-2005, 11:33 PM	#4 (permalink)
Hudson Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Staffordshire Posts: 270	It's a good day Spare the rod and spoil the child. The human race has known this for thousands of years. It's truth. However, modern social-liberal ideology has no room for truth. We are currently reapng the benefits of the hippies' ban on corporal punishment in schools. Now they want to ban it in the home. You want a vision of the future? Read Lord of the Flies. But then! Ah, sweet salvation! Nanny Superstate comes floating down on her EU umbrella, promising to solve everything for us! That's right, we are incapable of living our lives so Nanny must show us the way. Juvenile crime? We need ID cards, CCTV in every home, 're-education' programs for 'oldthinkers'. And no-one will say a word.

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08-06-2005, 11:15 PM	#3 (permalink)
Anthony Butcher Administrator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Long Ashton, Bristol Posts: 10,199 Party: None	I can understand their sentiment, but we are turning our entire society INTO phpbb_a population of drips. The compensation culture and the benefit culture are a direct result of this kind of thinking. We are teaching children all about their "rights" in society, yet not expecting them to take the responsibilities that come with those rights. Children shouldn't have the same rights as their parents or carers because they don't have the same responsibilities. Parents must have the final say in how to control and chastise their children. Our children are growing up with less and less boundaries, and it is scarey to see a badly behaved child playing up for a teacher because they know that there are no consequences. It causes huge amounts of stress for teachers, causes long term disruption of lessons and damages the education of other children. I was slippered at school for bad behaviour and it worked. No permanent damage, it was a short sharp shock to the system and I remembered the lesson very well! I didn't do it again. Obviously smacking/caning/slippering are not to everyone's tastes, but the state has no business outlawing it without providing a suitable, practical alternative. Why aren't they focusing their efforts on parents who allow their chidren to become obese? That is a far greater problem, and is tantamount to child abuse in some cases. Why aren't they concentrating on helping schools and parents to bring up better behaved children so that smacking becomes unnecessary?

08-06-2005, 11:52 PM	#5 (permalink)
B.A.Ware Moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Birmingham Posts: 4,630 Party: UKIP	I totally agree with Anthony’s posting, if we give children rights then they must have responsibilities and face the full force of the law. Now we cant do that because children are not responsible adults and they need guidance and that might mean slight chastising of the child. This is really illogical to me when we had the slipper and cane in schools years ago were the kids not more respectful then. I really wonder have all of these people that were chastised by their parents or school turned INTO phpbb_monsters.

09-06-2005, 12:22 AM	#6 (permalink)
arden forester Uber Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Solihull, in The Forest of Arden, Warwickshire! Posts: 2,699 Party: None	I remember from being caned at school two things! 1. I thought six of the best didn't hurt half as much as the other boys had previously suggested. 2. Having confided this thought to matron she informed the headmaster who had given me the punishment. My lasting impression. Well the caning was nothing compared with the lesson of life that you can't trust all those around you! Good lesson for politics.

09-06-2005, 02:13 AM	#7 (permalink)
John Carter Uber Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: On Sabbatical Posts: 5,110	Wait. Doesn't the EU Human Rights Charter guarantee the integrity of the family (or something like that)? How can a family's integrity be maintained if the head of that family can't do what he believes to be the best thing for it without intervention from the state?

09-06-2005, 02:49 PM	#8 (permalink)
rjt Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Aldershot Posts: 5,481	How on earth do you regulate smacking in the home? Incidently I am against corporal punishment in schools, beating children with a stick is not punishment it is sadistic. I would not smack my own children if i had any but to argue for a ban on smacking in the home where a responsible parent wishes to exercise discipline is stupid

09-06-2005, 03:27 PM	#9 (permalink)
Tom Collier Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Bournemouth Posts: 359	It might be easier than you think rjt. You simply make parents afraid of their children, just as teachers can be terrified by children thretening to "take you to court" if they intervene to stop a fight or something similar. I think moderate corporal punishment has its place, and is different from abuse.

09-06-2005, 03:40 PM	#10 (permalink)
gareth2 Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 731	i was at a farm yesterday, a 4 year old nearly squeezed a chicken to death. His mum was a stupid ditzy fool, who just said "let go of the nice chickky" and the kid was screaming his eyes out and the chickens eyes were bluging. I nearly gave my chick to dad to hold and ripped this kids hand open. Why didnt i? i was afraid she would call the police on me. ( i think i made the wrong choice though, you shouldnt give INTO phpbb_your fears) Luckily, the chick appeared to be ok in the end, but the kid remained a screaming obnoxious brat. Kids already get off to lightly, when what they need is a clip round the ear and a father. regards, Gareth.