Soaring Cost of Troubled Eurofighter

mkpdavies · 17-12-2004, 07:13 PM

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3900868

Quote:

Today Geoff Hoon visited the jet fighters’ future home at RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire to celebrate the UK’s order of another 89 in a £4.3 billion deal.

4.3 billion for a set of planes that are not much better than whats already out there for a lot cheaper.

see
http://www.hellinahandbasket.net/archives/000134.html

But we keep on ploughing good money after bad, as we can't be seen to admit failure now can we.

Some quarters don't even think the aircraft is up to modern day requirements, just like that other grand European project we all love!

mkpdavies · 17-12-2004, 07:18 PM

Just in case you believe that this purchase of 89 new aircraft, is due to real need, or respect fot their capabilities then go and read

http://www.tmhbs.com/comment_Typhoon.htm

Remember this is from May.

Quote:

The UK Government had agreed to buy its Eurofighters in three separate packages of 55, 88 and 89, over the next 10 years as part of a joint project with Germany, Italy and Spain. The RAF has already taken delivery of six of the aircraft, which are being used to train pilots. The arrival of the remaining 49 from the first tranche will be delayed, however, if required by other countries.

The decision to sell off some of Britain's Eurofighters was disclosed by Adam Ingram, the Armed Forces minister, in a reply to a parliamentary question by Norman Lamb, a Liberal Democrat MP.

So we are selling the damned things off as soon as we get them, because they don't cut the mustard. F17's already look to be far superior, and we could have got them cheaper from our buddies in the US!

jp · 17-12-2004, 07:30 PM

I was involved in the Eurofighter project from the equipment bids in 88 until I left the programme a year ago. It is, in fact an excellent piece of machinery. Without doubt the best of its generation of fighters.

Sitting around with three other nations to sort things out was not the highlight of my career, but the product itself good.

A great feat of british engineering leadership (shh don't tell the Germans).

mkpdavies · 17-12-2004, 08:03 PM

So why are they selling them as soon as they get them? There doesn't seem to be much love on the web for them, so I need to be convinced they are the best of the 5th gen fighters out there!

jp · 17-12-2004, 08:29 PM

The production quantities were set against the opposition of the time, ie Cold War USSR and also against expectations of the aircrafts'performance (how many you need to meet a certain mission).

The USSR has gone and the aircraft is better than its modelled targets in terms of reliability and other performance parameters, hence less are needed.

mkpdavies · 17-12-2004, 08:32 PM

Eurofighter vs Su-30MKI

You could have 2*Su-30MKI for the same price as a Eurofighter, would you take the one Eurofighter?

jp · 17-12-2004, 08:44 PM

Probably;

If the radar looks twice as far and keeps working ten times as long and the actual cost of repair / modification over the life - cycle is a quarter definitely!

Very extensive and sophisticated studies look at the cost of completing the mission, not just the cost of the airframe.

Another totally different angle is that if you don't have control over the design:

A You get screwed if you want anything done to your shiny jets (ask any export F18 customer) and

B If you want to use it in anger and the country who built it don't like the idea they can make life very difficult (lots of examples Iranian F14, Indian Sea King etc etc)

mkpdavies · 17-12-2004, 08:45 PM

Seems to me that the Eurofighter is up there in terms of speed etc, and can be classed in the top 3 current planes. But the cost is horrible, and some of the new planes out next year such as the F22 are going to make it obsolete, before it has had any kind of a run. That's bad business right there!

jp · 17-12-2004, 09:01 PM

The costs of developing all warplanes is horrible - I wish it wasn't necessary, but given the constraints, I think the Eurofighter has come in at a price competitive to other programmes. When you look at these things the actual costs are really slippery. For instance a lot of the cash has funded cutting edge design which has already found its place on other aircraft and helped to keep one of the last world class UK manufacturing industres in being.

I don't think it will be obsolete against any foreseeable threat it is likely to meet. Nobody but the Yanks can afford F22 , nor would an export customer be allowed to have it for many years even if they had the cash.

In terms of bang for your buck, Typhoon is at the top end.

Anyway the weapons are becoming more important than the carrier these days and they can be upgraded independent of the weapons platform.

mkpdavies · 18-12-2004, 09:41 AM

True!

No aircraft is going ot be much cop against a suicide bomber!

My argument here is why are we pouring money INTO phpbb_it still, when the need for the plane has gone.

I suppose we tied ourselves INTO phpbb_buying them, and can't get out of it. :evil:

17-12-2004, 08:03 PM	#4 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	So why are they selling them as soon as they get them? There doesn't seem to be much love on the web for them, so I need to be convinced they are the best of the 5th gen fighters out there! __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

17-12-2004, 08:32 PM	#6 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	Eurofighter vs Su-30MKI You could have 2*Su-30MKI for the same price as a Eurofighter, would you take the one Eurofighter? __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

17-12-2004, 08:45 PM	#8 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	Seems to me that the Eurofighter is up there in terms of speed etc, and can be classed in the top 3 current planes. But the cost is horrible, and some of the new planes out next year such as the F22 are going to make it obsolete, before it has had any kind of a run. That's bad business right there! __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

18-12-2004, 09:41 AM	#10 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	True! No aircraft is going ot be much cop against a suicide bomber! My argument here is why are we pouring money INTO phpbb_it still, when the need for the plane has gone. I suppose we tied ourselves INTO phpbb_buying them, and can't get out of it. :evil: __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

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17-12-2004, 07:30 PM	#3 (permalink)
jp Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,000	I was involved in the Eurofighter project from the equipment bids in 88 until I left the programme a year ago. It is, in fact an excellent piece of machinery. Without doubt the best of its generation of fighters. Sitting around with three other nations to sort things out was not the highlight of my career, but the product itself good. A great feat of british engineering leadership (shh don't tell the Germans).

17-12-2004, 08:29 PM	#5 (permalink)
jp Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,000	The production quantities were set against the opposition of the time, ie Cold War USSR and also against expectations of the aircrafts'performance (how many you need to meet a certain mission). The USSR has gone and the aircraft is better than its modelled targets in terms of reliability and other performance parameters, hence less are needed.

17-12-2004, 08:44 PM	#7 (permalink)
jp Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,000	Probably; If the radar looks twice as far and keeps working ten times as long and the actual cost of repair / modification over the life - cycle is a quarter definitely! Very extensive and sophisticated studies look at the cost of completing the mission, not just the cost of the airframe. Another totally different angle is that if you don't have control over the design: A You get screwed if you want anything done to your shiny jets (ask any export F18 customer) and B If you want to use it in anger and the country who built it don't like the idea they can make life very difficult (lots of examples Iranian F14, Indian Sea King etc etc)

17-12-2004, 09:01 PM	#9 (permalink)
jp Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,000	The costs of developing all warplanes is horrible - I wish it wasn't necessary, but given the constraints, I think the Eurofighter has come in at a price competitive to other programmes. When you look at these things the actual costs are really slippery. For instance a lot of the cash has funded cutting edge design which has already found its place on other aircraft and helped to keep one of the last world class UK manufacturing industres in being. I don't think it will be obsolete against any foreseeable threat it is likely to meet. Nobody but the Yanks can afford F22 , nor would an export customer be allowed to have it for many years even if they had the cash. In terms of bang for your buck, Typhoon is at the top end. Anyway the weapons are becoming more important than the carrier these days and they can be upgraded independent of the weapons platform.