George

In which case people just don't care. Truth be told, they are probably so resentful of the 100% rise they would rather cause maximum inconvenience for the council than behave like sheep in order to get back a measly 2% back.

The way to persuade people to recycle is to make it as easy for them to do so as possible.

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Aardvark

George, I agree. That's why we introduced recycling boxes across West Oxon when I was Chairman of the Waste Management Sub-committee. There are recycling points around the district and, apart from the council, charities are collecting clothes and shoes. Sainsbury's have plastic bag recycling banks outside their stores. I can recycle, with no effort, glass, metals, batteries, plastics, plastic bags, batteries, clothing, shoes, ink cartridges, paper and cardboard. I have a composter for green and vegetable waste. I am a member of a 'freecycle' group where people give away things that might otherwise go to the bin or dump. Any of us can offload better items at car boot sales or through adverts in shop windows.

I really find it difficult to sympathise with someone who has the opportunity, but can't be @rsed. Jobs, balance of payments, cost reductions in taxes etc are all good arguments - why don't people help the community in which we live?

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George

Because there is too much stick and not enough carrot. Just an example, I used to have a restaurant in Croydon, producing perhaps an average of 800 bottles per week in waste. There were four similar sized restaurants within 100 metres of me. We asked for a bottle bank and were told it would cost us £50 per week each. So we carried on chucking them in with the regular, landfill waste.

__________________
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mkpdavies

Oh are we? I could have sworn you were a member of the NF.

Way to spin it. I am against taxpayers money being extracted from them, to keep a system that is corrupt, harms the environment more and diverts people from making real good choices. The reason recycling has to be subsidised, is because it doesn't work otherwise. Again, people should watch this video. Try and come back with any part of it that isn't spot on.

Recycling Is ********

No, the truth is he was either to stupid to get around it (such as throwing it in the wood, dumping it in his neighbour's bin, or burning it). Or he decided he has had enough of being made to do something that is wrong and chose to make an issue of it. I hope it was the second, as unlike you, I like people with the balls to stand up to wrong, stupid and fascist laws.

You clearly have no idea what a Libertarian is, if you think it means having the right to hurt others. That might have been O.K in your young days (with black people anyway), but I don't believe in hurting others.
No **** sherlock. The fact you think I would think different takes moronic to a new level.

Well I've never smoked and never littered either, even as a child. So your snide someone like you comment is again, horse-****. Still at least I wasn't black, as you would probably have attacked me.
[quote]

In your judgment. In my judgment someone who was dumb enough to become an NF members opinion isn't worth squat.

I don't believe in "running" society. Society should run itself, but jumped up little control freaks always want their own way. Thanks for confirming my suspicions about your view on that though. It's very much the same opinion of elitists who think they have the divine right to "run" peoples lives throughout time.

If you believe in authoritarianism to the point of not questioning bad law. Just like you.
You are quite capable of finding all the figures of how recycling is heavily subsidised, if you choose to ignore the video I have posted.

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chikrodah

Thanks, Matt. You've made it very easy for me to say it.

You are, without doubt, one of the most passionate posters on this forum. I was proud to know you as part of the Lechlade group.

I'm ashamed, totally ashamed of how you have "grown" and "developed" since then. The passionate, committed proponent of change has, IMHO, shown himself, in his postings since the Lechlade Group "disbanded", to have deteriorated to a rabid Rottweiler, spewing hatred and bile against all who disagree.

I have bitten my tongue in the past, refusing to allow a knee-jerk reaction to your insistence that your view is right and all others are wrong. No longer.

Your postings are, IMHO, puerile rantings fuelled by an impotent rage against a situation you can do nothing about. You choose to destroy, to humiliate, to persecute, when you have the ability to create, to encourage and to build. You are more fascist than those you rail against and you have either insufficient courage or insufficient intelligence to publically acknowledge that fact. IMHO, of course.

Moderators, please ban me. I don't want to share a forum with this rubbish any more.

Aardvark

I watched the video. Is that really the best you can do? Two comedy magicians have become the world's experts on recycling?

You're right Matt, amongst other things, 150 is 3 x 60 as they say and we have 3 times more trees than we did in 1920 (no source for those 'facts'). The 'facts' are presented from the position that 'Recycling is B@llsh|t' and nobody who has been interviewed, in good faith, has had the opportunity to present a counter argument or to correct the edited version of what they allegedly have said.

The criticism levelled at the work created is that it is dirty and pays badly (no figure was given). That is in the USA without a minimum wage. It is not a fair criticism since the video doesn't point out that the landfill workers are in an environmentally hazardous and poorly paid environment as well or that landfill owners make money. The figures quoted are $60 for collecting and taking waste to landfill, but don't include costs of processing and $150 for collecting recyclables (3 x 60 apparently) and taking them to plants, but no figures for processing or income made from sale of recycled goods are presented (even the video accepts that aluminium is profitable as is copper, platinum and a host of other metals).

There are a lot of statements presented in Matt Davies style - disagree and you're a moron approach. The video is full of abuse, bad language and name calling. Nothing, and I repeat nothing for the hard of thinking, is presented in an objective or unbiased fashion. There is a whole series of similar Penn and Teller B@llsh|t programmes, they are intended as parody and not as factual accounts of the real situation, but humour was never a strong point of yours was it Matt?

The only figure that is dwelt on is the $8 billion subsidy (about 50c US per week per US citizen) - no account is taken of any financial return and the 'products' produced by recycling are lampooned. The video ignores the fact that most cardboard and toilet paper is from break even/profitable recycling depending on the market conditions. At present metal prices are so high that lead and iron is being stolen from rooves, cemeteries and parks in this country. Metal smelters in this country cannot get enough recycled material, but let's not let facts get in the way.

Matt, you cannot really take this video as 'fact'. It relates to the USA, is factually wrong and is presented in an amateur and offensive way that patronises those who are genuinely interested in this issue. If that is your idea of 'facts and figures' then you are, IMHO, lamentably ill informed and lack the capacity to understand or debate the issues of the day.

I note that rather than attack me with facts you attack my membership of a political party which I joined when I was 17 (I am now approaching 51) because in the la-la land of MKPD once you have made a mistake as a teenager you have to have it thrown at you for the rest of your life. You say that because of my uninformed views when I was 17 you don't value my opinions now - your logic is flawed and most grown ups would not accept that a person's views don't change in life. I campaigned for the People Party (modern Greens) when I was 16 and when the NF split I went with the moderate NFCM before joining the Young Conservatives. Oddly Matt, as I have matured my views have become more informed by reading widely, gaining a couple of degrees, serving as a commissioned officer in a conflict zone, experiencing more of the world and life and generally growing up. It might happen to you, but I'm not too optimistic at the moment if you genuinely believe what you say. If the first views a person has are to be considered to be their only views for the rest of their life then, Matt, you must see the futility of political campaigning as nobody will be persuaded by any arguments you have made, much in the Matt Davies 'don't confuse me with facts my mind is made up' approach.

I have never hurt or attacked anyone because of the colour of their skin, even when I was in the NF I had coloured friends and we debated the issues of the day. We even drank together. Strange but true.

I didn't accuse you of smoking or littering, I said 'someone like you' spoke to a street cleaner. Do you really believe that if you were ever elected you wouldn't cause a strike of the local authority workers with your attitude to the opinions of others. You'd be calling all of your paid enforcement officers 'little Hitlers' or 'fascists'.

You might not believe in 'running' society, but when you have a budget and a workforce and an electorate to consider then you have to take those matters into consideration. Somebody has to make the decision whether or not to collect waste weekly or fortnightly for instance - the decision not to collect waste and let individuals make their own arrangements might not be fascist and we wouldn't be jumped up little Hitlers, but the country would collapse within days.

Matt, IMHO, you should stay away from politics. You are not capable of understanding the posts of others, you are not fit (IMHO) to be an elected representative and you would make an appalling councillor or MP with your ignorance and lack of objectivity. You think you're clever, but (IMHO) your posts demonstrate that you are not.

__________________
When in Woking do as the Wokes do.

"I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

BonnieDundee

I really would not trust Penn and Teller, their shows are obvioulsy biasest. They set up and edit the interviews to make themselves look good and the interviewee look bad and they often go after cranks rather than real experts.

__________________
"It is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday facilitate a police state."
-Bruce Schneier

How to Overthrow the System: brew your own beer; kick in your TV; build your own cabin and p*ss off front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it.
Edward Abbey

Leopold Kohr.

mkpdavies

Chikrodah, I realise you and Aardvark come as part of a pair. Thus I can understand why you feel the need to defend your man. However, I suggest you look at who attacked who first in this thread, accusing them of wanting to punch people, throw litter and various other things.

When I get attacked first, I agree, I do respond viciously sometimes. However, I always like to give some basis of reality in my response. You boy suggested I go around punching people for sport, which is based 100% on pure slanderous fantasy.

You could well be right. I certainly do feel rage and unable to stop the fascist creep that is destroy my country. What ****** me off the most, is most people just seem willing to accept it. What ****** me off even more, are when people try to do something about it, even if they are misguided, they get attacked by people who are supposedly on the same side.

Yet you choose to ignore the fact your boy started it with the slanderous comments that I am the kind of person who punches people. Loyalty is a wonderful thing, unless it is misplaced.

I'd be happy to hear one fascist idea I have put forward, so I can reassess my position.

You don't need to be banned to ignore this forum. Just don't visit it, or even better, hit the ignore feature just for me.

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BonnieDundee

That should be biased, I changed my wording several times and didn't proof-read it.

__________________
"It is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday facilitate a police state."
-Bruce Schneier

How to Overthrow the System: brew your own beer; kick in your TV; build your own cabin and p*ss off front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it.
Edward Abbey

Leopold Kohr.

mkpdavies

Ah the good old Ad Homiem to get things started. Always a dodgy sign.

They were talking as we in the USA. It is a fact that the USA has more trees now, than in 1920.

Top Ten Forestry Advances - Forestry - About.com Forestry Guide
You can argue over the exact amount "more" if you want. Their logic is more important to me, in that if you farm trees (like potatos), you end up having more, not less.

Why thank you. Maybe I should go into T.V. too and become as popular as these guys.

No I don't think that. Only certain people fall into that category and not because they disagree.

Oh I don't know, I think they make excellent use of humour to get points across. I can understand why people get upset when it challenges their long held beleifs though. It's a bit like finding out you have been a mug for a long time and can't quite bring yourself to accepting it. As for the swearing, it is true, some of us aren't prudes and don't get offended by simple words. I appologise for that.

Well if you can give me some evidence of such an industry, that fully takes into account any subsidies and makes sure that profit is returned to the subsidiser, I would be glad to see it.

You can ignore the fact I and the programme said some things are worth recycling if you want. It doesn't make you right though.

The logic is what interests me more than the figures that come after. Something you haven't even tried to analyse. I wonder why??

Ah the bitter taste of your own medicine. Difficult to swallow isn't it. Only I was responding to your slanderous comments that people like me go around punching people and littering. Not very nice, considering I hadn't attacked you in any way and not based on reality. I like to make my responses based on a bit of fact. Yep we all make mistakes and we all have to live with them. Especially when we choose to throw stones ourselves.

Well I didn't actually say that, but you keep on making it up as you go along if you wish. You suggested that we are all against fascism, I suggested I don't believe that and in your case, your past allegiences need to be taken into account, along with your unwavering support of law, any kind of law dervived from anywhere, including the EU.

That explains a lot.

Bully for you. Though I have to report that sometimes you can take the man out of the fascist party, but you can't take the fascist out of the man. I see real signs of it still in you, but you are free to ignore my analysis.

I believe everything I say. Doesn't mean I don't get it wrong from time to time though.

That's good to hear. I am sure that they forgive you for funding and supporting a party that did then.

I'll remind you what you said, unprovoked.

You might believe, as a 'libertarian', that you have the 'right' not to cooperate with the community in which you live and that you might litter, defecate in the street, punch those you disagree with etc etc,

When I was young a street cleaner in Coventry was abused for asking someone like you not to drop a cigarette end.

Both ridiculous, unfounded and out of order slurs. You expect me to just sit back and take this ********? Sorry you have misjudged me if you think I will just cower down to such rubbish. You wanted a piece of me and you got it. Your partner may be willing to overlook you starting fights, but that doesn't mean I will.

1) There is no danger of that ever happening. I have no desire of ever being in government and am incapable of lying and pretending I am something I am not to win anyway. The only reason I ever stand, is to get people thinking about our wonderful system.
2) If a party that put my views on freedom into action, then I am sure some people would go on strike. I would hope such a party would try to phase in changes to prevent that happening, but I accept some people won't like it. Collectivists and fascists for starters.

And there is the rub of it. For years people were perfectly happy with their weekly collection. No one every demanded this be cut to every two weeks. I might have, if I would have got money off my council tax. However, as you know, this has been forced on us by the European Union. We now may much more, for much less service, based on utter lies. We simply are not running out of landfill space. It is ludicrous to even suggest we are, but that is what they tell people in leaflets. People are getting worse service for more money, based on lies. End of story.

Yes, shut up Matt, I don't want to hear your opinion. As I said, you can take the man out of the fascist party.

I'll leave that up to others to decide. I think I undesrtand them pretty well. Well enough to spot a fraud a mile off.
That's O.K, I feel the same about you. Only I think you have the skills required to manipulate yourself into power. Blair had it, Cameron has it and I think you do too. Maybe that's why we get what we get, because the liars and cheats are willing to do what it takes, while the people of principle are two busy worrying about their principles.

I think I am average. I know lots of people who I think are much more clever. You are quite clever, but you are nasty, authortarian, manipulative and, sadly for you, make the mistake of revealing that side of yourself to the world when you were young. That one mistake may prevent you from going any further than councilor level. Communism seems to be forgiven, but the other side of the authortarian coin isn't. Unlucky.

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