Envirofascists go after man of pure evil

Aardvark · 27-04-2008, 10:51 AM

The council was elected under the same process that we all engage in at this time of year (I've been on 8 ballot papers). Yes they are a Labour council, but every single citizen had the opportunity to stand, everyone had the opportunity to campaign and everyone had an opportunity to vote. If we don't like the councils we have then we should change them. I'll bet the guy doesn't do anything.

eublues · 27-04-2008, 10:54 AM

I have a feeling the public could be paid for their genuinely recyclable rubbish if things were organised properly. That would make a massive difference.

Aardvark · 27-04-2008, 11:32 AM

They are paid in that their council taxes are lower, but it is difficult to point this out to people.

We can abandon recycling altogether and we can put everything into landfill, as seems to be argued by a lot of vociferous UKIP supporters, but until we leave the EU we are subject to landfill taxes and the reduction in recycling (virtually all our steel production is recycling) will cost thousands of jobs and add to our balance of payments deficit.

I believe that the increase in balance of payments deficit and the imposition of landfill taxes and the reduction in jobs is being argued for by all of those who use emotive terms such as 'envirofascist' to describe those who would create work, reduce the balance of payments and avoid landfill taxes.

If by helping to reduce landfill charges, reducing the balance of payments deficit and increasing employment I am an 'envirofascist' then so be it. If idiots with larger than average bins and after warnings choose not to attend court and get fined then that is their problem and not mine.

In some parts of the country stab vests are needed to serve legal documents because the local government officers (none of whom will ever vote for the idiots who condemn them for doing their job) in some areas get attacked for carrying out duties that we expect of them. Photographic evidence is required to support court actions - I used it to help my daiughter avoid a conviction.

UKIP should be campaigning to create an environment where local government officers and public officials are not attacked - we have thugs who attack the ambulance service and firemen in uniform as well as the police.

UKIP should be campaigning for proper enforcement of the laws we have, not supporting those who openly defy a law that is respected by every other member of the community in which they live. The message this thread sends out to the hundreds of thousands of public servants who are going about the business of managing the bodies that are controlled by elected members is 'don't vote UKIP, they're with the lawbreakers'. When we get into local authorities are we going to back our employees or the lawbreakers? If we side with one lawbreaker are we going to be happy as elected members when the whole district breaks the law and our local services can't cope? We'll have to employ more workers to clear up the mess and that will mean higher taxes.

Vote UKIP, support chaos in your local services and pay higher taxes. That's what this thread is saying in so many words.

mkpdavies · 27-04-2008, 12:05 PM

I think the law does need breaking, when the law is wrong and based on fascism.

Aardvark · 27-04-2008, 12:29 PM

JC, Somebody tried the HR Act on wheelie bins very early on and lost (he argued against having to put the bin out every week). The frivolous cases are thrown out very quickly. If it is your wheelie bin (albeit loaned by the council) and it is on your land it is your responsibility. The reason people in some areas are told not to put bins out too early is no doubt because some people had put their waste in other people's bins when the opportunity presented itself or some people 'claimed' that the excess waste in their bin wasn't their's.

It seems that the 'enviroilliterates', the opposite of 'envirofascists', are determined that our country should be a cess pit full of waste that it is nobody's responsibility to manage. I was Chairman of the Waste Management Committee of West Oxon District Council and Vice-Chairman of the Environment Committee when we had to make a lot of the decisions concerning recycling and waste management. I was deputy chairman of the Waste Management Best Value Review. We had some very difficult decisions to make and we heard a lot of arguments on both sides. We had to sign contracts with private firms to collect waste and recyclables. If bins are flowing over then, as the workers move them to clip onto the back of the lorry to be lifted, waste spills onto the street. That waste either has to be picked up by the binmen (doubles the time taken to do the round, doubles the cost to the council taxpayer) or swept up/picked up by the street cleaners (more than doubles the amount of street cleaning). It is reasonable therefore that people are asked to keep the contents of their bin to a sensible level by using the recycling/composting facilities that councils are obliged to provide. It is an economic argument. Keep council tax down.

I have seen surveys that suggest that well over 80% of the contents of household bins (before recycling boxes etc) could be 'economically' recycled. It is sensible therefore to recycle that material.

Having now read the council's website, which is not couched in emotive terms, I am firmly with the council's officers.

BTW, the fine was one week's wages of 40 hours at less than the minimum wage. Bus drivers do not receive the minimum wage. People with 4 children receive £200 or so per month child benefit. The man will be in receipt of working family tax credits and might be in receipt of housing benefit. He could have made an offer to pay the £80 fine at £1 per week and he could have defended himself in court if he thought a principle was at stake. He could have taken advice from the council in how to reduce his waste. He already had a large bin. He chose to do nothing and now runs bleating to the papers that he is hard done by when, if his behaviour was duplicated by others, it would add substantially to the council tax bill that his neighbours must pay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I genuinely believe that, if the economic arguments were sensibly put, the position of those who support this guy would clearly be seen to be to increase council tax, undermine the officers of the local council, reduce recycling and thereby jobs, reduce recycling and increase imports and reduce recycling to increase the landfill taxes imposed on the council tax payers.

If you were in a position of authority, as I have been, what would your decision really be?

Aardvark · 27-04-2008, 12:49 PM

Matt, Your response to every law that you don't like is that it is 'fascist' or based on 'fascism'. It is of course your own definition of 'fascism' that includes laws passed by democratically elected MPs and councillors in accordance with their manifesto pledges. Basically, rather than provide any cogent argument to counter those, the overwhelming majority in some cases, who disagree with you, you respond with comments that by the paucity of thought that is behind them defy a logical response. All of us are opposed to 'fascism', it's just that some of us have a different understanding to you of what it means. I have made the mistake of studying the subject of fascism and reading widely, but still cannot seem to agree with you that common sense rules that are accepted by the majority of the populace are fascist.

If my freedom of speech were to be curtailed I might think it was fascist. If my right to read what I choose were to be curtailed I might think that it was fascist. If I am asked, in order to make society run more effectively for the common good, to help the binmen I might be hard pressed to think it was fascist.

The only reason that this matter has made headlines is that the guy has been stung a few quid for not complying with local rules. He might argue that it is 'fascist', but the truth is that he saw it coming and did nothing.

You might believe, as a 'libertarian', that you have the 'right' not to cooperate with the community in which you live and that you might litter, defecate in the street, punch those you disagree with etc etc, but that stands the tenets of libertarianism on their head. Libertarianism is not, as you seem to think, the cult of self above others, but a responsible view that you are free to do as you please in that it doesn't harm others. We can all be free to litter, but we all have to pay for the streets to be cleaned if we don't want to live in our own sewage.

When I was young a street cleaner in Coventry was abused for asking someone like you not to drop a cigarette end. The street cleaners struck for a weekend and the city was filthy. The city centre was awash with chip wrappers and cans. One man not helping the bin men might seem like a bold statement against fascist laws, but I bet if everyone did it then Copeland would become a sh|t hole in days.

Matt, You have failed to debate or discuss this issue because you are incapable of doing so. You revert to type and dismiss counter arguments with simple sloganising. On the basis of the arguments that I have put forward come up with facts and figures (Matt provide facts and figures

) to disprove what I have said. It's easy if you have them.

It is so easy for people who will never be elected and have never been elected to criticise those who have to make decisions to run our society.

There are genuine cases where the police and local officials do get it wrong, but this is not one of them.

The Bear · 27-04-2008, 02:28 PM

He got what he deserved. he broke the law.

On the other hand we don't, weekly rubbish collection should be brought back in immediatly.

Aardvark · 27-04-2008, 02:33 PM

I don't think any authority has got rid of weekly collections, it's just that different rubbish is collected on different days. We're lucky, we have a weekly recycling and a weekly non-recycling collection.

George · 27-04-2008, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

They are paid in that their council taxes are lower, but it is difficult to point this out to people.

Perhaps it is difficult to point out because council tax has risen by 100% since Labour came to power while, officially, prices have risen by about 35%. Given that the amount of recycled waste doubled in just four years between 2000 and 2004 I would be astonished if even the most brainwashed, fanatical greenie would accept that statement as anything other than wishful thinking at best and pure BS at worst.

Aardvark · 27-04-2008, 03:23 PM

Sorry George, lower than they would otherwise be. I thought it would be obvious that that was what I meant. It is difficult to say that the increase would have been 102% instead of 100% and have much credibility even though that might well be true.

27-04-2008, 10:51 AM	#11 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,116	The council was elected under the same process that we all engage in at this time of year (I've been on 8 ballot papers). Yes they are a Labour council, but every single citizen had the opportunity to stand, everyone had the opportunity to campaign and everyone had an opportunity to vote. If we don't like the councils we have then we should change them. I'll bet the guy doesn't do anything. __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

27-04-2008, 11:32 AM	#13 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,116	They are paid in that their council taxes are lower, but it is difficult to point this out to people. We can abandon recycling altogether and we can put everything into landfill, as seems to be argued by a lot of vociferous UKIP supporters, but until we leave the EU we are subject to landfill taxes and the reduction in recycling (virtually all our steel production is recycling) will cost thousands of jobs and add to our balance of payments deficit. I believe that the increase in balance of payments deficit and the imposition of landfill taxes and the reduction in jobs is being argued for by all of those who use emotive terms such as 'envirofascist' to describe those who would create work, reduce the balance of payments and avoid landfill taxes. If by helping to reduce landfill charges, reducing the balance of payments deficit and increasing employment I am an 'envirofascist' then so be it. If idiots with larger than average bins and after warnings choose not to attend court and get fined then that is their problem and not mine. In some parts of the country stab vests are needed to serve legal documents because the local government officers (none of whom will ever vote for the idiots who condemn them for doing their job) in some areas get attacked for carrying out duties that we expect of them. Photographic evidence is required to support court actions - I used it to help my daiughter avoid a conviction. UKIP should be campaigning to create an environment where local government officers and public officials are not attacked - we have thugs who attack the ambulance service and firemen in uniform as well as the police. UKIP should be campaigning for proper enforcement of the laws we have, not supporting those who openly defy a law that is respected by every other member of the community in which they live. The message this thread sends out to the hundreds of thousands of public servants who are going about the business of managing the bodies that are controlled by elected members is 'don't vote UKIP, they're with the lawbreakers'. When we get into local authorities are we going to back our employees or the lawbreakers? If we side with one lawbreaker are we going to be happy as elected members when the whole district breaks the law and our local services can't cope? We'll have to employ more workers to clear up the mess and that will mean higher taxes. Vote UKIP, support chaos in your local services and pay higher taxes. That's what this thread is saying in so many words. __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008 Last edited by Aardvark; 27-04-2008 at 11:35 AM.

27-04-2008, 12:05 PM	#14 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,615	I think the law does need breaking, when the law is wrong and based on fascism. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

27-04-2008, 12:29 PM	#15 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,116	JC, Somebody tried the HR Act on wheelie bins very early on and lost (he argued against having to put the bin out every week). The frivolous cases are thrown out very quickly. If it is your wheelie bin (albeit loaned by the council) and it is on your land it is your responsibility. The reason people in some areas are told not to put bins out too early is no doubt because some people had put their waste in other people's bins when the opportunity presented itself or some people 'claimed' that the excess waste in their bin wasn't their's. It seems that the 'enviroilliterates', the opposite of 'envirofascists', are determined that our country should be a cess pit full of waste that it is nobody's responsibility to manage. I was Chairman of the Waste Management Committee of West Oxon District Council and Vice-Chairman of the Environment Committee when we had to make a lot of the decisions concerning recycling and waste management. I was deputy chairman of the Waste Management Best Value Review. We had some very difficult decisions to make and we heard a lot of arguments on both sides. We had to sign contracts with private firms to collect waste and recyclables. If bins are flowing over then, as the workers move them to clip onto the back of the lorry to be lifted, waste spills onto the street. That waste either has to be picked up by the binmen (doubles the time taken to do the round, doubles the cost to the council taxpayer) or swept up/picked up by the street cleaners (more than doubles the amount of street cleaning). It is reasonable therefore that people are asked to keep the contents of their bin to a sensible level by using the recycling/composting facilities that councils are obliged to provide. It is an economic argument. Keep council tax down. I have seen surveys that suggest that well over 80% of the contents of household bins (before recycling boxes etc) could be 'economically' recycled. It is sensible therefore to recycle that material. Having now read the council's website, which is not couched in emotive terms, I am firmly with the council's officers. BTW, the fine was one week's wages of 40 hours at less than the minimum wage. Bus drivers do not receive the minimum wage. People with 4 children receive £200 or so per month child benefit. The man will be in receipt of working family tax credits and might be in receipt of housing benefit. He could have made an offer to pay the £80 fine at £1 per week and he could have defended himself in court if he thought a principle was at stake. He could have taken advice from the council in how to reduce his waste. He already had a large bin. He chose to do nothing and now runs bleating to the papers that he is hard done by when, if his behaviour was duplicated by others, it would add substantially to the council tax bill that his neighbours must pay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I genuinely believe that, if the economic arguments were sensibly put, the position of those who support this guy would clearly be seen to be to increase council tax, undermine the officers of the local council, reduce recycling and thereby jobs, reduce recycling and increase imports and reduce recycling to increase the landfill taxes imposed on the council tax payers. If you were in a position of authority, as I have been, what would your decision really be? __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

27-04-2008, 12:49 PM	#16 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,116	Matt, Your response to every law that you don't like is that it is 'fascist' or based on 'fascism'. It is of course your own definition of 'fascism' that includes laws passed by democratically elected MPs and councillors in accordance with their manifesto pledges. Basically, rather than provide any cogent argument to counter those, the overwhelming majority in some cases, who disagree with you, you respond with comments that by the paucity of thought that is behind them defy a logical response. All of us are opposed to 'fascism', it's just that some of us have a different understanding to you of what it means. I have made the mistake of studying the subject of fascism and reading widely, but still cannot seem to agree with you that common sense rules that are accepted by the majority of the populace are fascist. If my freedom of speech were to be curtailed I might think it was fascist. If my right to read what I choose were to be curtailed I might think that it was fascist. If I am asked, in order to make society run more effectively for the common good, to help the binmen I might be hard pressed to think it was fascist. The only reason that this matter has made headlines is that the guy has been stung a few quid for not complying with local rules. He might argue that it is 'fascist', but the truth is that he saw it coming and did nothing. You might believe, as a 'libertarian', that you have the 'right' not to cooperate with the community in which you live and that you might litter, defecate in the street, punch those you disagree with etc etc, but that stands the tenets of libertarianism on their head. Libertarianism is not, as you seem to think, the cult of self above others, but a responsible view that you are free to do as you please in that it doesn't harm others. We can all be free to litter, but we all have to pay for the streets to be cleaned if we don't want to live in our own sewage. When I was young a street cleaner in Coventry was abused for asking someone like you not to drop a cigarette end. The street cleaners struck for a weekend and the city was filthy. The city centre was awash with chip wrappers and cans. One man not helping the bin men might seem like a bold statement against fascist laws, but I bet if everyone did it then Copeland would become a sh\|t hole in days. Matt, You have failed to debate or discuss this issue because you are incapable of doing so. You revert to type and dismiss counter arguments with simple sloganising. On the basis of the arguments that I have put forward come up with facts and figures (Matt provide facts and figures ) to disprove what I have said. It's easy if you have them. It is so easy for people who will never be elected and have never been elected to criticise those who have to make decisions to run our society. There are genuine cases where the police and local officials do get it wrong, but this is not one of them. __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

27-04-2008, 10:54 AM	#12 (permalink)
eublues Uber Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,925	I have a feeling the public could be paid for their genuinely recyclable rubbish if things were organised properly. That would make a massive difference.

27-04-2008, 02:28 PM	#17 (permalink)
The Bear Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: East Anglia Posts: 1,684	He got what he deserved. he broke the law. On the other hand we don't, weekly rubbish collection should be brought back in immediatly. __________________ I am an old man. I have eaten much salt.

27-04-2008, 02:33 PM	#18 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,116	I don't think any authority has got rid of weekly collections, it's just that different rubbish is collected on different days. We're lucky, we have a weekly recycling and a weekly non-recycling collection. __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

27-04-2008, 03:23 PM	#20 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,116	Sorry George, lower than they would otherwise be. I thought it would be obvious that that was what I meant. It is difficult to say that the increase would have been 102% instead of 100% and have much credibility even though that might well be true. __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

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