The Smoking Action thread

Baron von Lotsov · 31-08-2007, 10:26 PM

So does anyone know the answer to the question of what would happen if the council stuck two fingers up at the government? This is my intuitive feeling of how we could make progress on this issue. There is no point in one man against another with the pub landlord and his licence vs. the man on the street with his desire to rid this world of stupid laws telling him what he can and can't do. The position here has been well plotted and made quite watertight.

What we love is grey areas and I'm thinking we could manufacture a suitably excellent grey area all nicely packaged and completely debugged and ready to roll. It would be then quite a simple matter to rollout this grey area amongst Tory and Liberal councils and some will bit if the grey area has been properly thought through. It takes someone with a speciality in local government law and this is a subject of law within law so it's not really something your highstreet brief can deal with. We need some professional brains on this matter. Someone must know something out there. We only have a few months to go before you lot will see sense in thinking ahead. (It's very cold in January. Freezing in fact.)

g hall · 02-09-2007, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron von Lotsov

So does anyone know the answer to the question of what would happen if the council stuck two fingers up at the government?

Removed and disbarred from office - don't forget that the council officers have to follow the law and no matter what councillors say that is what ultimately counts

Baron von Lotsov · 02-09-2007, 08:58 PM

Are they legally bound to targets on catching smokers? What if they just allocate funds to deal with more worthwhile issues? What if their inspectors were used for multiple roles and were under resourced etc. You see what I'm getting at, if they didn't want to play ball they could do a lot to stick two fingers up without being explicit about it.

Kevin Adamson · 02-09-2007, 09:18 PM

I have a nieghbour who has a rather antisocial habit of lighting bonfires on sunday afternoons. I enquired at the council what the laws were on bonfires (I was seeking conformation that you had them after 7 or something) so I could confront him next time with the right info.
I was a little surprised to be told by the Pollution inforcement team that bonfires are allowed .
so there you have it you can smoke everyone out on a sunday afternoon,even if you live next door to the pub even if everyone in england objects but you cant have a fag with your pint when no one gives a toss

Its a mad world

Baron von Lotsov · 02-09-2007, 10:28 PM

Yes it's a fascinating subject what you can and can't do. I read this big fat book on civil law once when I was bored and it went into all the civil case law to do with those neighbour vs. neighbour issues and much else besides. It's really complicated stuff but I must say what I saw was very well thought out. The result of a century or more of test cases and that it tries to build an entirely logical framework out of our disordered human existence.

I suspect your average council employee to have difficulty telling you the time of day so that's why they fob people off. Naturally this can sometimes play into your hands when you have a dispute with them but they are next to useless in helping someone with such a grievance unless it is specific council policy. They get a very much more generalised version of what is and what is not legal but much of it is far more difficult to determine. It goes something along the lines of your right to enjoy your property but this cuts both ways. You can for example have parties every now and again and I think it is determined on the basis of what is normal. Every weekend would not be normal but one large one for a wedding would be.

However this smoking law has been rushed in by a bunch of incompetent fools, so there just has to be some loophole somewhere and you know lawyers smoke as well. So I'm hoping one day a lawyer will be quietly sitting outside in the freezing cold having a fag when the penny drops. The point being that if a grey area is established, would the government have the enthusiasm to fight it? They are not particularly popular as it is. They would have to fight the council for starters. You know what bullies are like when someone a bit bigger turns up to protect the individual being picked on.

NickIrons · 04-09-2007, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stathan

Said councils will be criticised and lose the support of many more voters who object to smoking other peoples fags involuntarily.

It's all really quite simple.......I don't urinate over the person next to me in the pub toilets.....don't blow your smelly smoke all over me when I'm in the bar.

Do you drive a car.......
If so, why should I breath the pollution that it bellows out.

scorpy66 · 05-09-2007, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g hall

I suspect it is EU driven - to meet mortality targets - what they forget is no one lives forever (except C_Steam)

Take a look at this, and check the dates! Some of the wording in the ASH article is chilling. It appears that an international bandwagon was created years ago, governments have been jumping onto it ever since, ours seems especially like the over-zealous swotty kid trying to please teacher by going above and beyond the minimum requirements.

And what about democracy? Hands up if this is the first you've ever heard of it!

http://www.epha.org/a/342

http://www.newash.org.uk/ash_cw6n9erk.htm?search=treaty

Current signatories:
http://www.fctc.org/x/treaty/currentsigs.php

PS Hi all - first post! Can I just dive in or do I have to post somewhere to make a little speech about myself?

PPS Boris, I have no idea about your council questions but I'd love to know the answers if anyone does!

Carlo Em · 05-09-2007, 01:10 PM

Nick I bet he does- so typical of how hypocritical and selfish the antismokers are.

B.A.Ware · 05-09-2007, 04:08 PM

Quote:

PS Hi all - first post! Can I just dive in or do I have to post somewhere to make a little speech about myself?

Welcome just dive straight in but watch out for the sharks.

Baron von Lotsov · 05-09-2007, 05:25 PM

Ah well you see this is one thing that this law is in aid of. It's called divide and rule and any non-smokers are supposed to react in a way that says 'if I had to go through the stress of giving up then everyone else should have to as well'. Now the government will be rubbing their hands as it all turns into a snitch society, citizen against citizen.

What we should be doing is something that is exhibited in higher intelligence life forms, like the ones that rejected their dumbing down programming. We should unite to deal with the common enemy; a bureaucracy sipping champagne in 5 star taxpayer funded elite clubs laughing at the small people. We need to give them something to worry about that directly affects them. If we don't then as the old saying goes it will be you next. As certainly as night follows day the next social engineering scheme will be launched and the one after that and then you non-smoking government supporters will find people wont help you and more divide and rule.

Just think, if you were one of those government scammers what would be your worst nightmare regarding this? I'd say it has to be the gofers saying we will not follow your commands. Mutiny in other words.

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31-08-2007, 10:26 PM	#21 (permalink)
Baron von Lotsov Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 916	So does anyone know the answer to the question of what would happen if the council stuck two fingers up at the government? This is my intuitive feeling of how we could make progress on this issue. There is no point in one man against another with the pub landlord and his licence vs. the man on the street with his desire to rid this world of stupid laws telling him what he can and can't do. The position here has been well plotted and made quite watertight. What we love is grey areas and I'm thinking we could manufacture a suitably excellent grey area all nicely packaged and completely debugged and ready to roll. It would be then quite a simple matter to rollout this grey area amongst Tory and Liberal councils and some will bit if the grey area has been properly thought through. It takes someone with a speciality in local government law and this is a subject of law within law so it's not really something your highstreet brief can deal with. We need some professional brains on this matter. Someone must know something out there. We only have a few months to go before you lot will see sense in thinking ahead. (It's very cold in January. Freezing in fact.)

02-09-2007, 08:58 PM	#23 (permalink)
Baron von Lotsov Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 916	Are they legally bound to targets on catching smokers? What if they just allocate funds to deal with more worthwhile issues? What if their inspectors were used for multiple roles and were under resourced etc. You see what I'm getting at, if they didn't want to play ball they could do a lot to stick two fingers up without being explicit about it.

02-09-2007, 09:18 PM	#24 (permalink)
Kevin Adamson Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Surrey Posts: 854 Party: UKIP	I have a nieghbour who has a rather antisocial habit of lighting bonfires on sunday afternoons. I enquired at the council what the laws were on bonfires (I was seeking conformation that you had them after 7 or something) so I could confront him next time with the right info. I was a little surprised to be told by the Pollution inforcement team that bonfires are allowed . so there you have it you can smoke everyone out on a sunday afternoon,even if you live next door to the pub even if everyone in england objects but you cant have a fag with your pint when no one gives a toss Its a mad world

02-09-2007, 10:28 PM	#25 (permalink)
Baron von Lotsov Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 916	Yes it's a fascinating subject what you can and can't do. I read this big fat book on civil law once when I was bored and it went into all the civil case law to do with those neighbour vs. neighbour issues and much else besides. It's really complicated stuff but I must say what I saw was very well thought out. The result of a century or more of test cases and that it tries to build an entirely logical framework out of our disordered human existence. I suspect your average council employee to have difficulty telling you the time of day so that's why they fob people off. Naturally this can sometimes play into your hands when you have a dispute with them but they are next to useless in helping someone with such a grievance unless it is specific council policy. They get a very much more generalised version of what is and what is not legal but much of it is far more difficult to determine. It goes something along the lines of your right to enjoy your property but this cuts both ways. You can for example have parties every now and again and I think it is determined on the basis of what is normal. Every weekend would not be normal but one large one for a wedding would be. However this smoking law has been rushed in by a bunch of incompetent fools, so there just has to be some loophole somewhere and you know lawyers smoke as well. So I'm hoping one day a lawyer will be quietly sitting outside in the freezing cold having a fag when the penny drops. The point being that if a grey area is established, would the government have the enthusiasm to fight it? They are not particularly popular as it is. They would have to fight the council for starters. You know what bullies are like when someone a bit bigger turns up to protect the individual being picked on.

05-09-2007, 01:10 PM	#28 (permalink)
Carlo Em Newbie Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3	Nick I bet he does- so typical of how hypocritical and selfish the antismokers are.

05-09-2007, 05:25 PM	#30 (permalink)
Baron von Lotsov Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 916	Ah well you see this is one thing that this law is in aid of. It's called divide and rule and any non-smokers are supposed to react in a way that says 'if I had to go through the stress of giving up then everyone else should have to as well'. Now the government will be rubbing their hands as it all turns into a snitch society, citizen against citizen. What we should be doing is something that is exhibited in higher intelligence life forms, like the ones that rejected their dumbing down programming. We should unite to deal with the common enemy; a bureaucracy sipping champagne in 5 star taxpayer funded elite clubs laughing at the small people. We need to give them something to worry about that directly affects them. If we don't then as the old saying goes it will be you next. As certainly as night follows day the next social engineering scheme will be launched and the one after that and then you non-smoking government supporters will find people wont help you and more divide and rule. Just think, if you were one of those government scammers what would be your worst nightmare regarding this? I'd say it has to be the gofers saying we will not follow your commands. Mutiny in other words.