Muslim groups warn of radical backlash

Anthony Butcher · 16-08-2005, 11:55 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/S...550063,00.html

Quote:

A coalition of Muslim leaders today warned that closing mosques deemed extremist and banning radical Islamic groups could fuel a radical sub-culture in Britain.

Nearly 40 signatories, including the Islamic Human Rights Commission and the Muslim Association of Britain, said new measures outlined by the prime minister could lead to Islamic values being "demonised".

The leaders jointly issued a six-point statement in response to the government's response to last month's London bombings.

It said: "We fear that recent events are being exploited by some sections in society to demonise legitimate Islamic values and beliefs and hence consider it appropriate to make the following observations."

The statement criticised the use of the term extremism, which it said had no tangible legal meaning and was unhelpful.

This has also been stated on this forum.

Quote:

The joint statement argued that the right of people to resist invasion and occupation was legitimate and said that questioning the legitimacy of Israeli occupation was also valid political expression.

The leaders also criticised the decision to ban the group Hizb ur-Tahrir, which is outlawed in Germany, and which Mr Blair specifically stated he intended to proscribe.

A proposal to ban the group was described as "unwarranted, unjust and unwise" and any disagreement with a political organisation should be expressed through debate, not censorship, the leaders wrote.

The statement, co-signed by Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain, read: "If it is suggested that any laws have been broken by any individuals or groups then this must be proven by due legal process.

"Criminalising the mere possession of certain opinions is the hallmark of dictatorships, not democracies."

The closure of mosques accused of "fomenting extremism" would amount to a collective punishment of the community, the statement warned.

It may "create fear" which could lead to "the very radical sub-culture which we all seek to prevent".

Finally, the Muslim leaders said plans to deport foreign nationals to countries known for human rights abuses was "abhorrent".

Earlier this month Mr Blair vowed to throw out fanatical preachers as he announced wide-ranging powers to combat Muslim extremists.

He warned: "Let no one be in any doubt, the rules of the games are changing."

Mr Blair said that clerics coming in to preach at British mosques will have to be vetted to ensure they do not pose a threat while those already here who do will be deported.

On issuing today's statement, Massoud Shadjareh, chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, said: "The British Muslim community has always been a law-abiding community and all its endeavours to create a just society have been entirely peaceful.

"However, we will not allow the demonising, devaluing or targeting of the concept of Islam which will we hold very dear."

The Home Office minister Hazel Blears also faced criticism today over the government's new anti-terrorism plans at the latest of the government's liaison meetings with regional Muslim leaders.

The minister for policing, security and community safety was in Leicester today, for a meeting with around 200 members of the Muslim community, where she was told the government's announced measures had the affect of putting an entire faith in the dock.

Despite a warm welcome from local schoolchildren, at the meeting itself Yaqub Khan, the general secretary of the Pakistan Association in Leicester, said: "I think the law on terrorism is making the whole Muslim community stand in the dock.

"I think there are lots of people who are opposed to Islam as a faith. This legislation is the type of legislation which has not even been introduced during war time."

Other towns and cities hosting the series of meetings are Bolton, Oldham, Burnley, Leeds and Bradford.

After the meeting, Ms Blears said: "We are trying to consult as much as we can but recognise that the events of July 7 quite rightly have caused us to review the situation and we have to have measures in place.

"We will take the legislation through parliament and give it the proper scrutiny."

mkpdavies · 17-08-2005, 12:02 AM

Presented to you by the Labour party.

IceDragon · 18-08-2005, 09:38 PM

It is the "radical subculture" that killed 53 people on 7/7/05. We need something far more far reaching than closing a few mosques down. Islam itself needs to change, it needs to be controlled. Perhaps to qualify as being a mosque the staff should have to fulfil strict criteria about what they say, they have to say it in English, their moderation. I think Salman Rushdie got it right, he should know, Islam in Britain needs to totally reformed.

Quote:

http://go.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle....rss/uk/topNews

What is needed is a move beyond tradition -- nothing less than a reform movement to bring the core concepts of Islam INTO phpbb_the modern age, a Muslim Reformation to combat not only the jihadi ideologues but also the dusty, stifling seminaries of the traditionalists, throwing open the windows of the closed communities to let in much-needed fresh air."

The India-born author urged Muslims to read the Koran as a historical document and "a product of its place and time" rather than a book whose teachings are set in stone.

"Few Muslims have been permitted to study their religious book in this way," he said.

"If ... the Koran were seen as a historical document, then it would be legitimate to reinterpret it to suit the new conditions of successive new ages. Laws made in the 7th century could finally give way to the needs of the 21st.

"The Islamic Reformation has to begin here, with an acceptance that all ideas, even sacred ones, must adapt to altered realities."

C_steam · 18-08-2005, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Perhaps to qualify as being a mosque the staff should have to fulfil strict criteria about what they say, they have to say it in English, their moderation

Great idea. How come labour haven't thought of this one!

Let's see, we could have a national islamic curriculum to be adhered to in Imam teachings.
Targets for achievement.
Guidelines for outreach work to other minorities.
NVQ's in mosque management.

(actually it sin't a bad idea, I just had this vision of the current government implementing it. As a wag once said - "New Labour - more pilots than BA, more visions than Mother Theresa")

kernow · 19-08-2005, 12:20 AM

I read these posts with anger and sadness and just think why oh why did we as a Country allow things to get so much out of hand. I've never considered my self racist but I can certainley see how you become one.

arden forester · 19-08-2005, 12:42 AM

How will Blair and Blears know who is a radical extremist Muslim imam and one who is not? Closing down mosques will not be easy! There is due process, surely?

I feel it is high time that Muslims explained once and for all the whats, wheres and whens of jihadist Islam. Are moderate Muslims just cherrying picking the Koran? There was a Muslim convert on TV last week, a supporter of one of these rabid clerics, who said Islam was the whole Koran or it was nothing. That is, all the verses had to be read, believed and acted upon.

This is the letter a Baptist minister sent to Iqbal Sacranie

Quote:

Dear Sir Iqbal Sacranie,

BBC2 NewsNight: ‘The teachings of Islam are very, very clear.’

I was very surprised to hear your public statement before the whole nation, which would therefore include Her Majesty’s Government and the Church, that the teachings of Islam condemn and forbid acts of violence such as the odious acts that were carried out last Thursday.

I would, as a community leader, find it extremely helpful to understand how, as a non-Muslim, I should understand the following verses from the Qur’an:

Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.”

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbours for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”

Qur’an 5:33 “The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly.”

Qur’an 9:5 “When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

Qur’an 4:94 “Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah’s Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: ‘You are not a believer!’ Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty.”

Qur’an 47:33 “Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace.”

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.”

Qur’an 9:12 “If they violate their oaths and break treaties, taunting you for your Religion, then fight these specimens of faithlessness.”

Qur’an 9:88 “The Messenger and those who believe him, strive hard and fight jihad with their wealth and lives (in Allah’s Cause).”

For brevity, I will not quote the Hadith which reveals the actual practice of Islam by Mohammed. I do, however, append a chronology early Islam, which details many of the known wars Islam was engaged in, almost all of which were offensive.

Consequently, I have to confess that, as a non-Muslim, it is not abundantly clear that Islam teaches peace. I do, however, begin to conceive how some young Muslim men, who are not youths (as you yourself described them), might accidentally assume that these verses mean what they say. I would welcome any clarification that the Qur’an provides which I, as a Christian, may have inadvertently missed. This will help me enormously in my relations with Muslims in our local community as well as the teaching I give to my church.

If, however, you are unable to provide the clarification, I will, reluctantly, be forced to conclude that either the Qur’an should not be considered the basis of Islamic thought, or that the statements you gave to the country are not entirely correct and will then discuss with my church what action we should take.

Yours sincerely,

I don't know if he got a reply.

How will Blair and Blears interpret these verses. It's all going to be a dog's breakfast of a mess! She won't work it, I'm sure. :shock:

mkpdavies · 19-08-2005, 09:08 AM

This is going to get silly. Did Iqbal reply back with a load of bible quotes that could be construed as dodgy? There are plenty he can choose from.

I just don't get religion.

Bluemerle · 19-08-2005, 10:07 AM

Lord Tebbit is, as usual, spot on in his analysis of what is wrong with Britain today and why British muslims have turned to bombing.

0751 Lord Tebbit tells us why his cricket test might have prevented the London bombings.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/

John Carter · 19-08-2005, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arden forester

How will Blair and Blears know who is a radical extremist Muslim imam and one who is not?

That one's easy. The latter doesn't exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arden forester

I feel it is high time that Muslims explained once and for all the whats, wheres and whens of jihadist Islam.

Not going to happen. Their books tell them that they can lie to infidels until such a time that they have the upper hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arden forester

Are moderate Muslims just cherrying picking the Koran?

Yep. They're like the old ladies who go to church on a Sunday just for some company, not for the religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkpdavies

This is going to get silly. Did Iqbal reply back with a load of bible quotes that could be construed as dodgy? There are plenty he can choose from.

In the Judaism part, maybe. Not in the Christian part.

IceDragon · 19-08-2005, 09:08 PM

I think it may be time we dusted off the Old Testament. I am not religious but at least there is something to back up a defence of our Britain.

How many of the Muslims who use Koran quotations are particularly religious and not in it for the thrill of bother?

If we are under attack from someone we should use the same rules of engagement as they do.

If they do not follow rules of engagement, should we?

19-08-2005, 09:08 AM	#7 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 31,158 Party: Libertarian Party	This is going to get silly. Did Iqbal reply back with a load of bible quotes that could be construed as dodgy? There are plenty he can choose from. I just don't get religion. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

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17-08-2005, 12:02 AM	#2 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 31,158 Party: Libertarian Party	Presented to you by the Labour party.

19-08-2005, 12:20 AM	#5 (permalink)
kernow Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 5,184	I read these posts with anger and sadness and just think why oh why did we as a Country allow things to get so much out of hand. I've never considered my self racist but I can certainley see how you become one.

19-08-2005, 10:07 AM	#8 (permalink)
Bluemerle Uber Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Dorset. Posts: 3,252	Lord Tebbit is, as usual, spot on in his analysis of what is wrong with Britain today and why British muslims have turned to bombing. 0751 Lord Tebbit tells us why his cricket test might have prevented the London bombings. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/

19-08-2005, 09:08 PM	#10 (permalink)
IceDragon Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,048	I think it may be time we dusted off the Old Testament. I am not religious but at least there is something to back up a defence of our Britain. How many of the Muslims who use Koran quotations are particularly religious and not in it for the thrill of bother? If we are under attack from someone we should use the same rules of engagement as they do. If they do not follow rules of engagement, should we?