John Carter

Wow. How stupid does it get? If they'd made that statement a month ago we'd have gotten rid of Blair by now.

:?

Intbel

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We are all free to choose - every step of the way - no exceptions.

Bluemerle

Wasn't it Howard who said when they had the last vote on ID cards at Christmas. "If you can't support us go and do some Christmas shopping" :roll:

Stephen Booth

I think the imposition of identity cards come from Europe. It is being hidden behind a 'security' smokescreen, but it is Europe really. The anti ID card campaigners haven't really stressed this angle but I think it is important.

In Nazi Germany Jewish people were made to wear a yellow Star of David on their clothes but in present day Europe all the information about a persons' background and political afiliations will be hidden away in the computer data base and linked to the person holding the card by the bar code magnetic strip or smart chip embedded in the card. Every time they pass through a checkpoint or try to access government services, the NHS etc etc this information will be called up. The discrimination will be hidden away but nevertheless real and extremely effective.

I don't hold out much hope of the Conservative Party opposing it in the Commons. They'll do some dirty deal with Labour over it.

Perhaps a campaign waged against those 48 MPs in so-called 'supermarginals' might focus their minds on how they vote on this, but without the Tories having the courage to vote it down as well, the parliamentary arithmetic looks hopeless.

A propaganda campaign against it focussing on Bliar's support for the policy as a big negative factor might also help. But in my experience the civil libertarians lobby eg 'Liberty' (formerly the NCCL) are extremely weak or useless at actually defending civil liberties.

There might be some kind of 'poll tax' style revolt against it, which without the commons / lords voting it down might be our only hope of stopping it. But my worry is that people don't seem to be so strong at defending themselves as they used to be.

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Britain Out of Europe Now !

Intbel

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We are all free to choose - every step of the way - no exceptions.

Donna

I am not the property of the State.

Best,
Donna

SilverFalcon

Why are you all so afraid of Identity Cards? Why do you all have such an opinion of yourselves as individuals yet you do not want anyone to know you are one? Why are you afraid of the state that you all put in place in the first place? I have had an Identity Card since I was sixteen. Although I would prefer not to have one I have never had any trouble having one. No one has ever knocked on my door and every time I have purchased anything, started a business or gone out of the country, I have been able to prove that I am a legitimate citizen. It does help in preventing some crimes because you simply cannot do some things or go to certain places without proving your identity. That is why it is called an identity card, so you can be a legitimate member of the society you went to so much trouble creating. And databases do help trace international criminals, in seconds.

Modern society is a beast created by humanity and it must be controlled like any beast. It is true that we have placed each beast INTO phpbb_its own cage but then we agreed to this, we colluded in our imprisonment so we should do what we can to help our zoological community function at optimum strength. And a good way to do this is to databank the identities of all the individuals in the country. If there were no countries then the argument for no identity cards would be valid. But if there are countries and at the same time you all want each darling soul to be an individual free to bomb and litter and scam then you amaze me with your hypocrisy, to say nothing of your immaturity.

Liberals, and you all sound like terminal angry liberals who have had their noses pushed INTO phpbb_their muck and suddenly don't like the smell, tend to think of humanity as a delightful concoction of Punch, heady, diverse, spiced and good for everyone provided they don't take too much in. On the other hand, if they do, then you have an escape clause. You are free to be as bad as too much Punch will make you because that is your "right". What "right"?

Not wanting ID cards with such an unfocused passion is an indication that you are suffering the pangs of adolescence and cannot bear to leave home where Mummy and Daddy will not be there to say you can do as you please. Society is not a playpen. It is an arena. If you want to go to the arena you must have a ticket, or you may end up as gladiator prey. You are not gladiators, you are weaklings. You wouldn't be able to fight in an arena if your lives depended on it. You just think you would. You have been spoiled rotten to the core by decades of welfare state cosseting and you have no idea what you are talking about most of the time. That is why you hate your "opposition" with such gusto. You are all so revved up and fighting fit. In your opinion. Not in mine. My opinion of you is that you are all weenies, with the exception of one or two I have encountered who look set to move out from that position. When they do you may find that they challenge you. That could be scary. They will have cut some of their teeth on people like me. What will you do then as you swank and ponce in front of these?

You are, in fact, the possession of the state. You have created this monster and it needs feeding. You are its fodder and so are your hapless offspring. You haven't given a toss who or what you have poured INTO phpbb_your societies for decades and now suddenly you are getting your gander up about "freedom" and "liberty" and other strange somewhat nationalistic prerogatives. Nations are the ones who love freedom, everyone else is just a drone of some universal hive. You have all been nurtured from the teat of welfare state liberalism. The Americans have not so they are far tougher than you. They understand that life is an arena and they fought in it and they have won. It is the Americans who have ended up in space, through their own intelligence and a completely different kind of freedom, a liberty born of struggle and open competition. They are teetering on the brink of losing this and this has nothing to do with anything but the encroachment of universalist liberalism on their once sacred right to be themselves, to bear arms and to defend and protect what was theirs. You hate that kind of thing. How do I know? You're too scared to own guns, you're far too too scared to fire them, or have your identity on a database, and you're too scared to confront your opposition with anything other than charges of racism or fascism. In short, you are a laugh. You will never succeed, politically or in any other way. You are a bunch of well heeled, well groomed fairies and your women are full of bombast and ridiculous self appointed idealism.

This is politics. Welcome to the arena. Can you fight? Can you fight without recourse to the two escape routes you have been using thus far? Racism and fascism. Can you fight without these? And is what you have been doing so far fighting at all? Or don't you lovely people engage in that kind of thing, along with identity and the sanctity of "freedom"? You want it but not very much. I get the feeling that if some of you got INTO phpbb_power you would be as dictatorial and extreme as any other liberal. And as phoney and stuck up as any other Tory. What is so different about you? How are you ever going to stand out from the crowd and how, this is the really slimy one, are you going to bear up against the nationalist opposition? The growing nationalist opposition, across Europe. The scary boys and girls with the gleam in their eye. Many of them come from the streets. There's no bullsh*tting them. Can you still trip the light fandango with them, or will you just go on resorting to the two Great Accusations and hope for the best. You will be supported by the Lib Dems and the Tories and even by Labour if it comes to the push, so you can shelter under this vast but unrealiable umbrella for some time. What will happen though, if the sun comes out and you are asked to declare yourselves?

As a rule liberals cannot declare themselves one way or the other. It's part of their ideology to be vague on a range of issues. They are certain of mostly only one thing. They do not want to be owned by the state. But their suggestions for how to avoid being owned by something you pay taxes to and rely on for your benefits when the old slings and arrows of misfortune have run you through, tend to make hypocrits of you all.

I am not a liberal, I am a libertarian. There is a big difference today and of course I am unswervingly right wing. But then I am well aware of the fact that if I want a thing like the state and I realise that there has been no successful alternative since mankind first decided to live in settled communities we must acknowledge that whoever is in power will "own" us as a landlord owns those who pay rent. And we rent nearly everything in our world now. We are veritable tarts, we even rent ourselves much of the time to various causes and obligations. It's no use expounding the tenets of a philosophy of freedom and liberty if everywhere man is in chains. To loose these chains means to take cognizance of reality of our poxy fellow man, and above all, to ask ourselves why we think we are so fab. And how, when all the kissing and hugging and shagging the world's dross and living in harmony has worn a bit thin, we are going to be able to pick up the pieces and truly find a way to control the uncontrollable in our societies. ID cards are just a facet of such an attempt. When things get too big and unwieldy, as many overpopulated societies now are, especially if they are also multicultural, you have to know who is who so that you can prevent them from exercising their freedom to the detriment of all you glorious libertines.

You need protection. You really do. And sometimes all this obsession with freedom becomes a mere fascism in itself, forcing people who want some semblance of order and control to be sucked INTO phpbb_your idealistic world, thus placing them outside of any freedom of their own to express their ... well ... freedom to differ, strongly. You will simply brush them aside. They will be called "racist" and "fascist" and, you desperately hope, they will just go away and leave you and your uncouth millions to share in the bubbly of your new age communities. Good luck. You're going to need it. I know, I've been there, done that and very nearly bought the bullet, the stab wound and rape. Yes, it's pooh, isn't it? One shouldn't mention these things. They are foul and unrelated to the idealistic nature of the created human being. The designer species. But what of the uncreated one? What of reality? Where do these fit in in Shangri-la? :?:

mkpdavies

You want to pay 300 quid for ANOTHER pieace of plasitc and be finger printed like a common criminal, then go ahead.

I was born a free man however and I don't want one.

The government won't be forcing me to have one either.

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SilverFalcon

No one is free. Where did you get that idea? Who told you you were born a free man?

mkpdavies

You are as free as you want to be. Accept everything thrown your way and you soon won't be.

__________________
http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/
http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/
http://lpuk.org

My ignore list

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