Millennium3

The problem is - if the in/out of the EU referendum takes place, according to the Globalvision survey, only 25% want to leave the EU whereas a further 50% want to cut political and economic ties. This referendum is one that is likely to be lost and lock us into the EU indefinitely.

It is not impossible that Brown has concluded, following the mini referenda, that he cannot hold off having a referendum without losing the next GE for sure. This option is very likely to give him what he wants only by a different route. If the Labour MPs support the measure - then this almost certainly what is going on.

komerad

"Not much point mate, it's all done & dusted" was the reply from a gentleman when asked to sign our petiton for a referendum in Cardiff last week.
Unfortunately. I think he's right

Millennium3

Yes - but there could be a chink in the armour insofar as Brown wants to stay PM after the next GE. If the Tory ruse of pressing for a referendum is costing him that - he will be looking for a solution.

Populist Lee

Taking your post in reverse order, Tony:-

Yes, The PP would introduce the Swiss-style referendum/plebiscite [direct] democracy as you outline. This is a system whereby, among other things, a national level referendum result is binding on national government.

The key fact here is that these are citizen initiated referenda. The rules on how these are conducted are enshrined in Law; likewise how the questions are phrased - - irrespective of the subject on which the people are being asked to cast their vote. But the subject matter is for the petitioners themselves.

Contrast that to the way referenda have been conducted in the UK. All national referenda have to date been at the behest of Government [Labour]; the subject has been determined by Government; the questions determined by Parliament (and with the Government possessing the majority vote, one can hardly claim the set question is independent of Government). The Government has determined the parameters of how each individual referendum is conducted - - how the campaign is fought by opposing sides, and the threshold by which the referendum result is valid or not. And surprise, surprise not one of the UK referenda have been identical in this respect. The Government can move the goalposts as and when it suits.

There is no provision in the UK currently for citizen initiated referenda [except at parish level]. So a referendum that may be held on the Lisbon Treaty will be held under the constraints outlined in paragraph four above. To be blunt about this. These constraints make UK referenda at national level much closer to referenda conducted in the Third Reich than those held in Switzerland.

Did Herr Hitler ever get a referendum [sorry, I mean plebiscite] result he didn't want?
So I shall take a pretty jaundiced point of view on the whole subject of UK referenda until there is a significant move by the powers-that-be in the direction of real direct democracy.


The Regional Assembly Referendum. Indeed, John Prescott did not get the result he wanted. And the unelected regional assemblies continued unaffected [untainted] by any democratic input. These have now been transformed into the even more opaque and sinister RDAs. The next step will see the abolition of local government at county council level. And not one shot will have been fired. The EU regional governments tighten their grip . . .
. . . By serendipity evidently.


If it comes to the actuality of a Referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, I will agree that the better result will be its rejection. But the simple rejection does not cancel the EU. And as per my post at #25 I am expecting the wording of such a Referendum to have permanent acceptance of the EU implicit if one just votes - - even if, at the end of the day, it's the EU minus the Lisbon Treaty for the UK.

The complete catastrophe will be if by some collective insanity the voters accept the Lisbon Treaty. "1975" is the lesson that Government is able the get the result it requires despite the polling beforehand. You might very well have called this correctly by listing the referendums called during February. The risk is the thought lightning can't strike twice. No one really knows the answer to that till . . .

__________________
ENGLISH POPULISM
Stands as the only obstacle in the path of the Plutocrats
who seek to reduce all the Peoples of the World
to Economic and Political Slavery under Globalism


POPULISM MEANS WHAT YOU WANT IS WHAT YOU GET

Tony Bennett

komerad wrote: "'Not much point mate, it's all done & dusted' was the reply from a gentleman when asked to sign our petiton for a referendum in Cardiff last week. Unfortunately. I think he's right"

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REPLY: komerad, this is much too defeatist for someone who flies the Union Jack as his avatar. When I was campaigning to keep the pound many years ago, people said exactly the same: 'We'll join the euro sooner or later, it's inevitable'.

And what stopped the government from joining the euro?

The threat of a referendum that they would *lose*

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