Pan-European identity

Olympic Flame · 04-03-2008, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gc

I think it depends on how far back you choose to go and still be happy to qualify a link, or what are your criteria for 'commonality'. A nation is primarily the sum of its people, so your question is really about the relationship between 'different' people...

Like the Normans, and indeed the Muscovites, we Anglo-Saxons are descended from the Vikings. But the fact that my heritage is Anglo-Saxon makes me no more or less "European" than a European Jew, an Italian of Moorish descent, or a Slav, in my personal opinion. Others may see it differently. It might ultimately depend on how much one values the concept of "Europeaness". By this I mean that a person who places no value on European heritage might choose do be distanced from it.

I see. So for you it is more up to the individual perception.

From my undertsnading, the pro Pan-European argument seem to centre around a holistic version of western history that a large number of nation states descended from similar cultural and historical background such as the Christianisation of Europe, renaissance, enlightenment and the subsequent rise of capitalism and industrial revolution.

There isn't a fix boundary but is more or less restricted to modern western Europe, and some use it to justify the existance of a cultural hegemony for the European Union.

It is of my interest to see how do the people here respond to such views.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gc

Do you have to be white to be "European"? Does changing your passport change your nationality de facto as well as de jure?

I think it is a gross technical error to consider "being white" as relevent of being European. The idea of "Whites" as a colonial construct in history has manifested itself as an inconsistent perception used to feed certain political agenda and pseudo-science. Prior to 1965, American immigration policy and public opinion was based on the old perception that Irish and southern European were not white and were lesser beings. Now the official recognition for whiteness not only entail slavic speakers and caucasian people at the far east but also north Africans and Middle Easterners. In the apartheid South Africa, Japanese was once considered as white. All these have very little basis to connect with the pan-European argument in the previous paragraph of mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gc

I differentiate between "Europeans" and "Africans" in certain contexts, but at what historical point does a group become "assimilated"? Do they merely have to consider themselves assimilated in order to be considered so, or is some sort of majority decision required? Is there a qualifying "period of residence"?

Once we establish a criteria, are persons of a certain colour excluded from the process? Sadly, I suspect they may be in some people's minds.

Without the luxury of slaves to do their work for them, Athenians would not have had the time to indulge their love of politics, and therefore develop the practice of democracy. So one might argue that the Athenians and their African slaves clearly share a common history insofar as each made an indispensible contribution to the development of the Liberal Democratic state that 2500 years after their time became the world standard in political achievement. (I would argue here that Liberal Democracy is a western European innovation.)

I consider myself "European", which is one reason why I argue so strongly against the concept of the European Union - I think the EU is as bad for the continent as a whole, as it is for us (with some qualifications...) I am of a generation that still waves the Union Flag rather than the St George's Cross, but I consider myself English.

Same sentiment as well. In the context of Eurasia we do still witness the antagonization between ethnic groups, as witnessed by the Kosovo crisis recently. The battle between the host nation and secessionist force truns very bloody sometimes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gc

Having said that, I have lived on the continent for some years, and every day I feel that I am in the midst of a foreign community. In the USA or Canada, I never once had the feeling of being amongst foreigners, even in the South, or the more cosmopolitan cities of the north, but not for an instant would I consider myself "American". I mention this to make the point that one's own perception might be misconceived, I do actually have far more in common with the average Yank or Canuck (or Aussie or Kiwi) than I do with the people I lived next door to for three years, so how valid is my concept of 'Europeaness'?

Complex question, that one! I think every one of us has his or her own answer. I look forward to reading other people's thoughts on this one, it is something I think about often.

Churchill wrote: "The Empires of the future will be Empires of the mind".

When globalisation cuts in it will be a more complicated problem when one actually wish to define his or her personal sense of belonging to a particular place or group, no matter there actually exists one or not. there are alot people "complaining" that their citites are turning more and more "American" nowadays.

arden forester · 05-03-2008, 02:55 PM

There is no common culture. That's just federalist baloney. What we do have are similar understandings. We understand the similarities we share in Christianity, music, democracy, trade, and rule of law. Similar is not the same! Whilst there is some backsliding on democracy, these are the main similarities.

I may like Italian food but I do not share their culture. I may like and appreciate Italian music, but I do not feel Italian in the process.

We are more alike as Europeans, than, say the Chinese or Indians, but we are still different. That difference should be proclaimed positively and I, for one, do so!

mkpdavies · 05-03-2008, 03:26 PM

YouTube - Europe Vs. Italy

05-03-2008, 02:55 PM	#12 (permalink)
arden forester Uber Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Solihull, in The Forest of Arden, Warwickshire! Posts: 2,660 Party: None	Vive la difference! There is no common culture. That's just federalist baloney. What we do have are similar understandings. We understand the similarities we share in Christianity, music, democracy, trade, and rule of law. Similar is not the same! Whilst there is some backsliding on democracy, these are the main similarities. I may like Italian food but I do not share their culture. I may like and appreciate Italian music, but I do not feel Italian in the process. We are more alike as Europeans, than, say the Chinese or Indians, but we are still different. That difference should be proclaimed positively and I, for one, do so! __________________ www.ardenforester.blogspot.com www.westminster-whispers.blogspot.com

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