British Democracy Forum - View Single Post

chikrodah · 03-06-2008, 05:12 PM

Hulkman, you don't read many of my posts, do you? I have a lot of respect for decent hardworking members of UKIP, some of whom I am lucky enough to count as friends. I have a lot of respect for some of the UKIP staff, both in HO and Brussels. I have a lot of respect for some of the current NEC members as well as some of the ex-NEC members. I think Farage has many qualities that make him a good UKIP MEP. I am careful never to comment on individuals without personal experience of their attitudes and behaviour. (Posting on this forum does give me an indication as to their attitudes and behaviour.

)

Now, I must admit to not having read the "Law and Order" policy in detail as the UKIP press release had been enough to make me wonder how UKIP planned on achieving any of their aims. But, what the heck, I've read it now.

BTW, Fraser didn't help write the policies, UKIP commissioned him to write a briefing paper.

I agree with having more police on the beat. I agree with less red tape. As a No2ID member and speaker, I agree with the stance on ID cards. I agree with a revision of legislation relating to smoking in public buildings. I agree that legislation relating to the HRA needs reviewing and revising. I agree that the principle behind the European Arrest Warrant is counter to that of our body of law. I agree that detention without trial is contrary to our legal principles, but I can see occasions when it might be necessary under controlled circumstances. I agree that confronting the criminal with the victim and their reactions is a salutory experience.

I am bemused by UKIP's desire to give schools the option of re-introducing corporal punishment.

Directly elected Chief Constables strike me as leading the UK down the path of the American experience. I'm not convinced that's necessarily a good thing.

I am wary about the singling out of minorities. I am wary about the assumption that criminals should never have the same rights as their victims. (I'm sure our justice system is wonderful and the rumours of people being framed on occasion are just that.) I am wary about the reintroduction of unfettered SUS procedures.

But what really makes me despair is:

Yet again, we have spelling mistakes. Yes, I'm critical of presentation. I am, amongst other qualifications, a trained proofreader.

Yet again, we have stale quotes from newspapers. Some of those quotes date back to 2005. What's the matter? Could the current situation be not as bad as it was then?

Yet again we've got wooly statistics. "Up to 25% of young people committed a crime in 2006". Not, "18%...." or "23%..." but "Up to 25%....". Couldn't the policy authors agree on which statistics they wanted to use?

Yet again we have spin. Take the doubling of crime since 1997. Nowhere is it acknowledged that part of that increase is due to the increased reporting by the public of those crimes.

Yet again, we've got nonsensical soundbites: "The most distressing forms of crimes are violent crimes." No, surely not!

Yet again, we've got targets we couldn't achieve within the timescales. Double prison places in 10 years? It would take that long to get the buildings up and staffed. It would take that long to build prison ships. If we're still part of the EU at that point, we'd have to put all contracts out to tender. UKIP could be in the interesting position of getting Poles to build our prison ships for us.

Yet again we've got stupid ideas. Place a copy of the Magna Carta in Parliament. What on earth for? Apart from anything else, the security arrangements would be a nightmare, and for what? Why is that part of a policy on law and order? What benefits would it bring?

Yet again we've got sweeping statements. Serious physical or verbal attacks on serving personnel will be a treasonable offence. The authors have obviously never spent Friday night in a garrison town with representatives of more than one unit around.

This from a party that thought handing out fines for calling a police horse names was a daft idea.

Yet again we've got ideas that are already being done. Criminals are already being confronted by their victims reactions to crime in certain cases. Prison places are already (slowly) being increased. Schools are already being given increased powers in regard to disruptive pupils. Judges have, in the past, 'encouraged' young offenders to sign up for military service before they return for sentencing.

Yet again we've got contradictory statements. UKIP wants to get rid of PCSOs but they want more civilians doing desk work. UKIP wants to get rid of police paperwork but wants the individual police forces to take over the role of the CPS.

Still, it's nice that the staff of a Gloucestershire pub get a mention.

03-06-2008, 05:12 PM	#6 (permalink)
chikrodah Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Midlands Posts: 1,650	Hulkman, you don't read many of my posts, do you? I have a lot of respect for decent hardworking members of UKIP, some of whom I am lucky enough to count as friends. I have a lot of respect for some of the UKIP staff, both in HO and Brussels. I have a lot of respect for some of the current NEC members as well as some of the ex-NEC members. I think Farage has many qualities that make him a good UKIP MEP. I am careful never to comment on individuals without personal experience of their attitudes and behaviour. (Posting on this forum does give me an indication as to their attitudes and behaviour. ) Now, I must admit to not having read the "Law and Order" policy in detail as the UKIP press release had been enough to make me wonder how UKIP planned on achieving any of their aims. But, what the heck, I've read it now. BTW, Fraser didn't help write the policies, UKIP commissioned him to write a briefing paper. I agree with having more police on the beat. I agree with less red tape. As a No2ID member and speaker, I agree with the stance on ID cards. I agree with a revision of legislation relating to smoking in public buildings. I agree that legislation relating to the HRA needs reviewing and revising. I agree that the principle behind the European Arrest Warrant is counter to that of our body of law. I agree that detention without trial is contrary to our legal principles, but I can see occasions when it might be necessary under controlled circumstances. I agree that confronting the criminal with the victim and their reactions is a salutory experience. I am bemused by UKIP's desire to give schools the option of re-introducing corporal punishment. Directly elected Chief Constables strike me as leading the UK down the path of the American experience. I'm not convinced that's necessarily a good thing. I am wary about the singling out of minorities. I am wary about the assumption that criminals should never have the same rights as their victims. (I'm sure our justice system is wonderful and the rumours of people being framed on occasion are just that.) I am wary about the reintroduction of unfettered SUS procedures. But what really makes me despair is: Yet again, we have spelling mistakes. Yes, I'm critical of presentation. I am, amongst other qualifications, a trained proofreader. Yet again, we have stale quotes from newspapers. Some of those quotes date back to 2005. What's the matter? Could the current situation be not as bad as it was then? Yet again we've got wooly statistics. "Up to 25% of young people committed a crime in 2006". Not, "18%...." or "23%..." but "Up to 25%....". Couldn't the policy authors agree on which statistics they wanted to use? Yet again we have spin. Take the doubling of crime since 1997. Nowhere is it acknowledged that part of that increase is due to the increased reporting by the public of those crimes. Yet again, we've got nonsensical soundbites: "The most distressing forms of crimes are violent crimes." No, surely not! Yet again, we've got targets we couldn't achieve within the timescales. Double prison places in 10 years? It would take that long to get the buildings up and staffed. It would take that long to build prison ships. If we're still part of the EU at that point, we'd have to put all contracts out to tender. UKIP could be in the interesting position of getting Poles to build our prison ships for us. Yet again we've got stupid ideas. Place a copy of the Magna Carta in Parliament. What on earth for? Apart from anything else, the security arrangements would be a nightmare, and for what? Why is that part of a policy on law and order? What benefits would it bring? Yet again we've got sweeping statements. Serious physical or verbal attacks on serving personnel will be a treasonable offence. The authors have obviously never spent Friday night in a garrison town with representatives of more than one unit around. This from a party that thought handing out fines for calling a police horse names was a daft idea. Yet again we've got ideas that are already being done. Criminals are already being confronted by their victims reactions to crime in certain cases. Prison places are already (slowly) being increased. Schools are already being given increased powers in regard to disruptive pupils. Judges have, in the past, 'encouraged' young offenders to sign up for military service before they return for sentencing. Yet again we've got contradictory statements. UKIP wants to get rid of PCSOs but they want more civilians doing desk work. UKIP wants to get rid of police paperwork but wants the individual police forces to take over the role of the CPS. Still, it's nice that the staff of a Gloucestershire pub get a mention.