Sorry, but you are shooting the messenger again, instead of addressing their points. I couldn't a toss what job someone has. If they make a good case, then they make a good case. These guys have made a good case and I have yet to hear anyone really knock it down. They are Libertarians and have been invited to talk politics many times in the USA, as they are actively involved with the Libertarian party there.
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Matt you accept that Penn and Teller lied over their figures on the number of trees (3 times as many)
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No I don't accept they have lied. Their sources may well have told them 3 times as many. I doubt anyone has actually done much counting of trees in the past, so I doubt to can get a truly accurate figure. However, their logic of responsible farming is good, not bad is sound and that is all I care about.
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but expect me to accept the logic of their position
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No, I expect you to make an argument against their logic. If you have definitive proof that they have certain facts wrong, then fine, they could well be overselling their case. That doesn't mean their fundamental case is wrong though.
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is not seen as an environmental plus and reduces habitat for certain species.
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Well that's a fair comment, but I bet it increases the habitat for certain other species too. Do I expect them to rampage all over the place, destroying old habitats to replace with new? No. I expect them to make the new farms in new places. Places where they don't destroy old ones. There is a shed load of room on this planet for that. Especially in the USA.
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To compare potatoes, which crop annually, with trees that crop in 15-30 years is not logical.
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Not if you are looking at it solely from the perspective of farming. Yes the cycles are different. So what.
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Wild potatoes are virtually extinct in any event and new types have been introduced to produce a certain type of consistency; there is a specific potato that was created in my lifetime to produce reconstituted 'fries'.
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I'm not sure what this has to do with the price of fish. If they want to produce a special paper focused tree, then that is fine. If they cut down "wild" trees to make way for them, then that is not fine. I'm not arguing for that.
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I archived into store all of my material on recycling targets, value for money, ..... etc
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I remember paper being recycled before. It never really took off though and there were limited applications where it could be used. Now there is masses of subsidy to make us all recycle paper. If it really was that good, then this subsidy simply wouldn't be required. Why is that?
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The thread started as an insult and abusive language is in the title
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Not aimed at any one individual. One mans insult is another ones true fact. I could get upset at the term denier, fruitcake, conspiracy theorist, etc. This forum doesn't ban attacking groups, much to the annoyance of Labour, Blue Labour, BNP, Europhiles etc. If you choose to where the hat of a group and take it to heart, that's your problem. Get Anthony to ban attacking groups, rather than going into a personal attack on me.
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unless you genuinely believe that people who disagree with your views are 'envirofascists'
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I believe people who make others alter their lifestyle, under the threat of violence if need be are. Especially when they have made no real attempt to convince or educate people on ALL of the facts for the case.
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You have called me a fascist and other names in the past when I have disagreed with your world view
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Only when you have made a fascist statement personally. I'll always explain why though and you can choose to think I am wrong or not. I don't mind people calling me what I am. I accept the terms arrogant, blunt, opinionated, angry and others all the time. When you lie about me or say something that simply has no basis what so ever, then I will fight back. Hard.
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Your posting style is aggressive, even if in private you are not, and I am not the only victim of your treatment
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Yes I am. Also I am stubbon and blunt. I should have been born in Yorkshire. However, I don't regret being like that. Take me or leave me, that is the way I am. There is an ignore feature if you don't like what I say. I mean most of it, though admit that I should probably hold back a bit more when I am angry.
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If we are to reduce the amount of legislation, which will take years to untangle, we have to select the most absurd regulations and target them first. We have to use consultation processes, many of which I believe to be flawed, to our advantage. If we get into positions of authority then we have to use them to achieve whatever we can. I was sacked from a NHS PCT for trying to stop closure of community hospitals and for voting against a government policy, but we did make national news on the decision to open a mobile ophthalmic treatment centre and I did get the 'secret' closure of community hospitals into the open. The media cover these things and pass on and I have lost tens of thousands of pounds for my 'principled' stand.
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I fully accept I am a useless politician. Maybe it's because I have no real desire to be one. I have no real interest in compromising on certain issues. I can't be bothered with all the skullduggary. I can't be bothered with the "ra ra go team blah" side of it. I am just an ordinary bloke, who sick of being fleeced and told what to do. I am not free and that makes me angry. Others are much better at playing the political game than me, I am way too "heart on the sleeve". I have to be less like that in "the real world", to keep my job and keep food on the table. However, I want people to know how I really feel and sorry if it offends you, but this is how I really feel.
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You seem to think that all your past insults of me and others should be forgotten and each thread is stand alone.
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I accept people take it as an insult that I call them fascist. I have tried to explain that I feel being fascist is normal and I am the weird one, but I bet you will never find me suggesting someone is fascist, without there being a good reason behind it. I have very rarely called you anything, but I suspect you take the collective grouping of envirofascist to heart every time. Well I could get upset quite a lot over the names groups I belong to get called, but life is too short and I have plenty of direct and personal attacks to deal with. That's what you get for being a big mouth.
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Clippo's harmless banter with others has been reported by you as an 'insult' and you attack the mods for not responding to your fascist attempt to suppress free speech and debate on this forum.
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You see it as harmless banter, because you agree with what he says on the issue. The forum has rules, but sadly I don't think many are capable of enforcing them fairly. That is why I would rather Clippo could call me all the names under the sun. However, seeing as I get banned for calling someone a liar, I think it is only fair that this keep being applied when other call people brainless, mad etc. I won't be pointing out the double standards any more, I can't be arsed. Indeed, I want all moderators to ignore any abuse I get in the future.
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You will only be satisfied when everybody who disagrees with your unsubstantiated view of the environment is banned.
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Not true. I admit I have picked on Clippo to make a point, because he is the leader (in my eyes) and has openly stated he thinks his methods should be imposed on me and others, by force if necessary. I don't even really want him banned though, nevermind anyone else. I certainly haven't called for him to be banned either.
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You started the name calling
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Only if you count attacking groups. If you are telling me that isn't allowed any more, then fine. I'll go to a forum where I call a spade a spade.
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I responded in frustration with your unyielding position. I posted the alternate view provided by the council and you still see the guy, who couldn't be bothered to respond to council letters
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Sorry, but I simply don't respect the current authorities as much as you do. Why should the bloke jump through their hoops? He has no choice but to pay for a wacked out scheme, that used to work much better and cost a lot less. The fact he has no choice is little better than the Mafia telling him what to do. Some people choose to go along with it for a quite life, some choose to get around it in secret and others take a stand. I respect people who take a stand, on issues where there is unfairness.