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Originally Posted by Zak64
No denying that! The Cultural revolution saw millions of chinese die at the hands of their government. That does not justify Chinas invasion of Tibet, in and of itself that fact justifies calls for Tibetan independence.
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Huh? Where is the link in the deduction?
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Murder I said, murder I stand by. I chose the word to convey exactly what it means. The Tibetans were murdered by the Chinese Liberation Army, as it was and is remains an illegal occupation. If an army marches into a foreign country and starts executing civilians (and I have read the eyewitness reports) then it is murder. Plain and simple. It's every bit an act of murder as when Nazi troops killed Jewish civilians in occupied Russia. It is not an act of war, we are not talking about soldiers falling in battle here. Murder.
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Thats a very generalised and unsourced description which I have nothing to say on a forum like this. Neither do I believe in the effectiveness of arguing technicality of sovereignty on an internet forum. All political force/powers had bloody history (surely I recognise the prosecution against millions including Tibetans as well in the great cultural revolution and previous civil wars). There are better ways to look at the future to benefit all regardless of race and religion in China rather than a story of Nazi Chinese trying to keep the Tibetan down version of image more fictional than Alice in Wonder Land.
There are two points I see about the Free Tibet Advocates.
1) They dont have a pragmatic and realistic version of the future for China or Tibet to best benefit the region and people rather than simple rhetoric.
2) Many of the arguments they brought forward are hyprocritical, fallacious and in some cases morally repulsive under detailed scrutiny.
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I agree it used as political currency. But I would still call what happened in Tibet genocide.
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Genocide is the
deliberate and
systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group. Unless you believed that Beijing has a timetable and constructed plans to wipe out the Tibetans, genocide is no way relevent.
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Not quite what I said. Perhaps I should have been clearer. Had the Tibetans fought back more strongly against the Chinese in the early years of the occupation they would probably have driven the Chinese out.
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Would they be better or worst off? Tibet has been part of the greater China empire historically. Unless you believe that an independent landlocked economy controlled by system of serfdom would be better, it would be worthwhile to resist. It was not a "moral justification", just some plained reality.
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The only 'River Of Blood' in Tibet was the one created by the Chinese with their appaling genocide against the Tibetans. Personally I don't care what the Dali Lama gets awarded or not, he is an ineffectual leader in my opinion.
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He changed his mind. He believed in higher autonomy instead of total independence as he believed that Tibet as a nation with poor infrastructrue locked between India and China will not survive. Sincere or not I dont know. Surely it makes sense.
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Human rights abuses are a problem worldwide, not just in China. But this thread concerns Tibet. Please feel free to start a thread on human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia or anywhere else for that matter.
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It was a digression to illustrate hyprocrisy of the Universalism in Imperialism conducted by leaders in Washinton and unelected ones in Brussels.
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I was highlighting the lack of democracy for the Tibetans (and the Chinese themselves come to think of it)
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A good question but what has it to do with Tibetan independence?
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Ineresting turn of phrase! If they are providing 'assistance to the regime' then surely the 'regime' is something separate to the Chinese immigrants, be they beauracrat or ballet dancer!
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Medical assistance. The infant mortality rate and life expectancy cant magically change on its own.
Infrastructure assistance. Buildings, railways and schools dont root from nowhere. Thats why Im more focused on current hard statistics rather than decades ago of personal accounts from exiles if you are interested in the future of the region.
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Excuse me! At what point did I say I had a hatred of the entire Chinese people or nation? I don't! Please don't ascribe such actions to me.
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What about anti-Chinese immigration claims? They were based on "Tibetans against Chinese" mentality. Look at your source in the immigration part.
Free Tibet Campaign - Major Allegations: Key Facts on the Chinese Occupation of Tibet You said Chinese should pay a high prize for the occupation only then they will "release" Tibet.
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Further, I would suggest that anybody who acts as an appologist for an illegal invasion of an independent nation and subsequent genocide is probably not best placed to start questioning others on what 'the spirit of human rights and democracy' means!
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We could spend days debating on "illegality" issue or accounts of the suffering of people in China, be it Tibet or other parts of China under communist rule decades ago.
But on the end of the discussion, little support a rationale conclusion of a better China or Tibet or people of China for a independent Tibet.