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Originally Posted by Olympic Flame
A lot of criticism is targeted towards the great cultural revolution, which the whole China suffered through it as a result. Strangely enough, that give some people a free pass for Tibetan independence.
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No denying that! The Cultural revolution saw millions of chinese die at the hands of their government. That does not justify Chinas invasion of Tibet, in and of itself that fact justifies calls for Tibetan independence.
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A lot more died in China's civil war anyway. Im not going to "justify" history. Political powers and much "isms" come through bloody path. Note the use of the phrase "murder of Tibetans" which is trying to convey a different message.
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Murder I said, murder I stand by. I chose the word to convey exactly what it means. The Tibetans were murdered by the Chinese Liberation Army, as it was and is remains an illegal occupation. If an army marches into a foreign country and starts executing civilians (and I have read the eyewitness reports) then it is murder. Plain and simple. It's every bit an act of murder as when Nazi troops killed Jewish civilians in occupied Russia. It is not an act of war, we are not talking about soldiers falling in battle here. Murder.
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I feel a deep sympathy and empathy to Jewish people, the most tragic victims of genocide in 20th century when the term "genocide" is often maniputed like inflated currency by political advocates to suit their own agenda.
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I agree it used as political currency. But I would still call what happened in Tibet genocide.
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So you support international terrorism as well as international secessionism?
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Not quite what I said. Perhaps I should have been clearer. Had the Tibetans fought back more strongly against the Chinese in the early years of the occupation they would probably have driven the Chinese out.
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The Interventionists in Washinton and Brussels dont need an angry man trying to stage a "river of blood" scene in Tibet. Interventionists need a "peaceful" symbol to put them on seemingly high moral ground. Do you honestly think he can get Nobel "Peace" prize if he subscribe to your radical view? Someone has to be the Mr Good guy and Dalai Lama knows his role.
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The only 'River Of Blood' in Tibet was the one created by the Chinese with their appaling genocide against the Tibetans. Personally I don't care what the Dali Lama gets awarded or not, he is an ineffectual leader in my opinion.
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This corresponds to the claim that Iraqi insurgents as well as Alqaeda do they do because they "hate our freedom". This suits the agenda that Human rights is a problem for China but not oil rich producing nation such as Saudi Arabia. Isn't the picture more or less complete?
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Human rights abuses are a problem worldwide, not just in China. But this thread concerns Tibet. Please feel free to start a thread on human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia or anywhere else for that matter.
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A referendum for immigration policy? When? where? how? I wonder if it happened in any part of the world.
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I was highlighting the lack of democracy for the Tibetans (and the Chinese themselves come to think of it)
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As i have said, Chinese immigrants come in two types. There are government personnels and civil servents to provide assistance to the regime. (My bold) There are individuals who saw greater personal opportunities.
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Ineresting turn of phrase! If they are providing 'assistance to the regime' then surely the 'regime' is something separate to the Chinese immigrants, be they beauracrat or ballet dancer!
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Thanks to the decades of free tibet movement people, like you has formed an intense hatred towards not only China, but the entire Chinese population. I think this isn't the spirit of human rights and democracy, is it?
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Excuse me! At what point did I say I had a hatred of the entire Chinese people or nation? I don't! Please don't ascribe such actions to me.
Further, I would suggest that anybody who acts as an appologist for an illegal invasion of an independent nation and subsequent genocide is probably not best placed to start questioning others on what 'the spirit of human rights and democracy' means!
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Im not trying to paint democracy as evil but communism isn't running against "democarcy" but is itself diametrically opposed to capitalism, inequality and racial/class opression, everything that co-existed with democracy in the western world for centuries until the 60s and 70s.
It's highly debatable what role did international communism played in improvement of equality and social justice in the west. "Neo-marxism" is often a label some staunch conservatives like to put on socially progressive ideas.
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Ummm! Look at post #10, you called democracy evil then! In my opinion communism played no role whatsoever in improving western nations. Free markets (free-ish) and representative democracy did that. Look at how poor the average Western country was under communism, IE the old Soviet Block. And it was the British navy, acting under the orders of the House of Parliament that swept the Atlantic of slave ships, in the face of opposition from other western countries, and ended the slave trade. So not everything democracy does is bad; neither is it faultless. On the other hand I can't think of anything much good at all that communism has done.
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Cold War Civil Rights:Race and the Image of American Democracy, historian Mary L. Dudziak showed how, in the ideological battle of the Cold War, Communist critics could easily point out the hypocrisy of the United States's portrayal of itself as the "leader of the free world" when so many of its citizens were the object of racial discrimination. She contended that this was a major factor in pushing the government to support civil rights legislation.
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Granted. It's a pity there were no similar rights movements in any communist country that I am aware of. I pointed out there was no Tibetan equivalent of Martin Luther King.
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Lies are deliberately made false statements that I would not make. I also dont believe in deliberately forging an consensus through appealing to emotions and ad hominem attack. There is no reason to believe that Free Tibet movement, or any other movement should not be examined under detailed scrutiny.
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I don't think I have accused you of lying have I? Neither is disagreeing with you an attack. I am prepared to believe the Free Tibet movement should be as scrutinised as any other movement.
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Sure and thanks and I ll look to it when Im free. Just a gentle reminder anyway. By understanding, it includes the reliability, usefulness and perspective of sources rather than blindly conforming to the thesis pushed forward by the authors.
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I consider the eyewitness accounts I have read to be reliable.
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Instead of beating the dead horse such as how many religious Tibetans are tortured in the great cultural revolution that rocked China, or victims of "genocide" in civil wars decades ago when China itself has been in defacto state of civil wars for decades, there are better ways to look at the issue in modern China to advance the interest of all people of China regardless of race or religion.
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I'm not beating a dead horse. The Tibetans want their country back, they want to be free! I have listened to what the Chinese government have said about Tibet, and I have read up on the history of Tibet. I believe the Tibetans side of the story.
(Incidently the Free Tibet movement didn't convince me of anything - one way or the other. I read a section in a mountaineering memoir that had a few pages about Tibet in it. I read up on Tibet and formed my own conclusions without reference to the Free Tibet movement)
Just because crimes happened some decades ago does not mean that they were not crimes then. Neither does it mean reparation should not be made today or at some future point. Again, you confuse the Chinese and Tibetan people and their interests. Were the Tibetans free to speak without fear of persecution I'm sure they would say the same; or substantialy similar.
It seems to me as if that last paragraph is an attempt to brush the crimes commited during Tibet's occupation under the carpet. Are you sure you don't work for the Chinese government?
Why are we reading about things like this if everything in the Tibetan garden is as rosey as the Chinese Government would have you believe!
Chinese troops use teargas to halt Tibet monks' second day of protest - Times Online
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If you understand the underlying spirirt of [b]ethnonationalism[b]
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I do! FREE TIBET!